"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." :(

[Lenny Hawker]

Greetings to all,

I am posting to this group (through google pro tem) because it seemed
to produce the most appropriate answers to my requests in a google
groups search.

I would be grateful for any help. I am a 43 year old man applying to
university as a mature student through UCAS this year. I have wanted
to do a degree for many, many years. When I was 17 or 18 I was a
top-rated violinist in my local area and everybody assumed I would go
on to be some sort of orchestral musician. I, too, had my heart
somewhat set on that goal, but I found social life at school difficult
and became increasingly overwhelmed by a sense of despair. I guess a
lot of adolescents go through that sort of thing. You might want to
say I was "depressed." I don't know.

OK, enogh with the life story.

My music suffered. I didn't go to music college. My Dad told me I
should accept an offer of Maths at York while I still could. The year
was 1979. I took his advice. At Uni I became even more depressed and
bombed out in my finals. I am convinced this is because I didn't work,
not because I couldn't have done it ( I have looked at maths again and
now enjoy it and can do it, albeit slowly ), and I didn't work because
of my state of mind, not, I assure you, because I decided to have a
non-stop party. I'm not the partying type. The social stuff is what
freaked me out. It never occured to me that the best escape was just
to bury my head in the Maths and forget everthing and everyone else. I
always thought I could catch up. I remember spending straight weeks
just moping in my room not going out, even to lectures, iirc, or, if I
did go to lectures basically getting so far behind I couldn't get it
and couldn't seem to do any work either. After the finals, I tried to
work for re-sits, but my mind was so messed up I couldn't seem to
concentrate on anything. Really! Concentration just wasn't happening.
I couldn't. I'd never experienced that before. Most people don't
believe that, but it's true.

Now I am taking an Access course. What to do. Do I tell them I went to
uni for one year before or just leave it off the UCAS form altogether
( it was 29 years ago for cripes sake ) and hope that records don't go
back that far. Before you jump to conclusions remember that in 1979
the humble IBM PC had yet to be invented. Files were held in brown
folders on large shelving units. Computers were very expensive large
noisy boxes with their own rooms. Furthermore in around 1987 or so I
was actually advised by an "Educational adviser" that whilst I should
really make my case explaining what happened, etc., it was actually
very unlikely that the LEA (local education authority) would go back
and check that fart back regarding grants and loans.

I don't know what to do now because it would be very easy for me to
smudge over the missing year and construct a narrative of my life
about wanting to do a degree now and furthermore telling the Access
staff several weeks into the course that I was actually at uni before
would be, umm, more than a little embarassing.

I would be most grateful for any advice or thoughts especially about
whether UCAS could easily check that far back, or even more general
thoughts about what a fellow in my mixed up spot really ought to do.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." :(

best, Lenny

[cowboy carl]

Post by Lenny Hawker
Greetings to all,
I am posting to this group (through google pro tem) because it seemed
to produce the most appropriate answers to my requests in a google
groups search.
I would be grateful for any help. I am a 43 year old man applying to
university as a mature student through UCAS this year. I have wanted
to do a degree for many, many years. When I was 17 or 18 I was a
top-rated violinist in my local area and everybody assumed I would go
on to be some sort of orchestral musician. I, too, had my heart
somewhat set on that goal, but I found social life at school difficult
and became increasingly overwhelmed by a sense of despair. I guess a
lot of adolescents go through that sort of thing. You might want to
say I was "depressed." I don't know.
OK, enogh with the life story.
My music suffered. I didn't go to music college. My Dad told me I
should accept an offer of Maths at York while I still could. The year
was 1979. I took his advice. At Uni I became even more depressed and
bombed out in my finals. I am convinced this is because I didn't work,
not because I couldn't have done it ( I have looked at maths again and
now enjoy it and can do it, albeit slowly ), and I didn't work because
of my state of mind, not, I assure you, because I decided to have a
non-stop party. I'm not the partying type. The social stuff is what
freaked me out. It never occured to me that the best escape was just
to bury my head in the Maths and forget everthing and everyone else. I
always thought I could catch up. I remember spending straight weeks
just moping in my room not going out, even to lectures, iirc, or, if I
did go to lectures basically getting so far behind I couldn't get it
and couldn't seem to do any work either. After the finals, I tried to
work for re-sits, but my mind was so messed up I couldn't seem to
concentrate on anything. Really! Concentration just wasn't happening.
I couldn't. I'd never experienced that before. Most people don't
believe that, but it's true.
Now I am taking an Access course. What to do. Do I tell them I went to
uni for one year before or just leave it off the UCAS form altogether
( it was 29 years ago for cripes sake ) and hope that records don't go
back that far. Before you jump to conclusions remember that in 1979
the humble IBM PC had yet to be invented. Files were held in brown
folders on large shelving units. Computers were very expensive large
noisy boxes with their own rooms. Furthermore in around 1987 or so I
was actually advised by an "Educational adviser" that whilst I should
really make my case explaining what happened, etc., it was actually
very unlikely that the LEA (local education authority) would go back
and check that fart back regarding grants and loans.
I don't know what to do now because it would be very easy for me to
smudge over the missing year and construct a narrative of my life
about wanting to do a degree now and furthermore telling the Access
staff several weeks into the course that I was actually at uni before
would be, umm, more than a little embarassing.
I would be most grateful for any advice or thoughts especially about
whether UCAS could easily check that far back, or even more general
thoughts about what a fellow in my mixed up spot really ought to do.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." :(
best, Lenny

In my opinion, honesty is always the best policy.

And I suspect most people in here will agree.

cc

[jess]

Post by cowboy carl
In my opinion, honesty is always the best policy.
And I suspect most people in here will agree.

indeed.

you have an excellent reason for dropping out of uni, and it's so long ago,
that i doubt they will be concerned that it will happen again.

[Ian/Cath Ford]

Post by jess

Post by cowboy carl
In my opinion, honesty is always the best policy.
And I suspect most people in here will agree.

indeed.
you have an excellent reason for dropping out of uni, and it's so long ago,
that i doubt they will be concerned that it will happen again.

Agreed old boy - tell 'em. It's so long ago that they really won't be
that interested - 25 years is a long, long time. Blimey, I was, err,
10 then :-)

Ian

[Robert de Vincy]

Ian/Cath Ford did write:

[snip]

25 years is a long, long time. Blimey, I was, err, 10 then :-)

I'm only 5 years younger than you!

That's a shock I could have done without.

[cowboy carl]

Post by Robert de Vincy
[snip]

25 years is a long, long time. Blimey, I was, err, 10 then :-)

I'm only 5 years younger than you!
That's a shock I could have done without.

I was - 4

Hmmmm

I postulate that the world didn't exist then.

Indeed, the entire universe was created upon my birth.

Thus making you all my biatches.

cc

[Toby]

Post by cowboy carl

Post by Robert de Vincy
[snip]

25 years is a long, long time. Blimey, I was, err, 10 then :-)

I'm only 5 years younger than you!
That's a shock I could have done without.

I was - 4
Hmmmm
I postulate that the world didn't exist then.
Indeed, the entire universe was created upon my birth.
Thus making you all my biatches.
cc

hehe just doesn't feel right, your logic

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by cowboy carl
I postulate that the world didn't exist then.
Indeed, the entire universe was created upon my birth.

Actually, the entire universe was created by my cat 25 minutes ago,
so there's not much to choose between any of us reading this.

[Toby]

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by cowboy carl
I postulate that the world didn't exist then.
Indeed, the entire universe was created upon my birth.

Actually, the entire universe was created by my cat 25 minutes ago,
so there's not much to choose between any of us reading this.

haha! Puddentats DO rule!

[Toby]

Post by Lenny Hawker
Greetings to all,

<life story ;) >

Post by Lenny Hawker
best, Lenny

I think you're right that you wouldn't be 'found out' but I don't
think you should fear telling them...It just adds to your 'experience
credits', and that is what unis look for in mature students, as far as
I know...What qualifications got you to York, btw?

[Lenny Hawker]

Post by Toby
...What qualifications got you to York, btw?

3 'A' levels in Maths, Physics and Music. I told you about the violin
bit, I think. I was also pretty good at the other two. That's how I
ended up doing Maths at York. My music wasn't up to it, especially my
violin playing which went caput at around that age. My Dad said that
Thatcher had just come to power and if I didn't take the offer of
Maths now I may never get another chance. Pretty dumb but I was
swayed. He is the swaying type; thoughtful, ponderous, practical and
wise --but ultimately wrong on this point.

I forgot to say I now hope/intend to do Philosophy with Political
theory. My interests went way over to the liberal arts and finally
came back to Philosophy.

While I'm here, many thanks to all who responded, including the
fascinating theories about the origin of all things. After some
thought, I found them "problematic" at best. I am heartened to hear
that 25 years is so long ago it will hardly matter anyway. Perhaps, as
usual, I was fretting over nothing. You know how it goes. I was really
panicing (sp.?) over this thing. I still will feel pretty stupid
owning up to the Access people but I was scared I would have to, umm,
"economize with the truth" on the UCAS form, and I didn't want to
compromise them by telling them the whole truth, thereby implicating
them in the deceit, if you know what I mean. I have another question
which I may put in its own thread for max. vis. It is related, but
different.

I _do_ appreciate _all_ your replies. These are trying days for me,
and your thoughts are more then helpful. Thank you, all.

best, Lenny

[Dr A. N. Walker]

[...]. I am a 43 year old man applying to
university as a mature student through UCAS this year.

[details snipped]

So, assuming you are telling us something even *remotely*
approaching the truth, you are now a marked person; many more
ATs read this group than contribute to it. And yet you want to
fib on your UCAS form. Why?

[...] Before you jump to conclusions remember that in 1979
the humble IBM PC had yet to be invented. Files were held in brown
folders on large shelving units. Computers were very expensive large
noisy boxes with their own rooms.

In 1979 we were experienced Unix users, and I assure you
that *our* records were computerised -- and yes, I still have them.
What other univs, and UCCA [as it then was] and your LEA were doing,
I have no idea, but local authorities in general certainly had
mainframes, and you would be very unwise to assume that they
*couldn't* easily check.

But to what end? You and your referee would be telling
porkies -- and guaranteeing them as the truth -- about something
that frankly doesn't matter at this distance in time. The only
practical effect is that *if* you are caught out [and you most
certainly will be if you lie about your qualifications, which
UCAS *will* check (eventually)], *then* you have broken your
contract and we can simply throw you out. Whether we actually
would do so might possibly be a different matter.

It's a serious mistake to think of univ admission as a
"competition" with "prizes" at the end which you can lie and
cheat to attain. Certainly for "mature" students, our prime
consideration is not your distant past, but whether we *now*
think that you would benefit from the education we offer. That
is a collaborative decision [much more so than for 18yos], and
not one to be based on a betrayed trust.

[Toby]

On 4 Oct 2004 15:47:10 GMT, ***@maths.nott.ac.uk (Dr A. N. Walker)
wrote:

The only

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
practical effect is that *if* you are caught out [and you most
certainly will be if you lie about your qualifications, which
UCAS *will* check (eventually)],

<snip>

What exactly do you mean by the above? I understood it (perhaps
incorretly) that any qualifications you put down on the 'completed'
section of the form have to be proved by showing your uni.
certificates, because UCAS only check qualifications yet to be
obtained i.e. on results day...? Of course, this gentleman will have
all of his qualifications already completed, so is it not the uni.
that must verifiy, not UCAS?

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:29:32 +0100, Toby

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
The only

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
practical effect is that *if* you are caught out [and you most
certainly will be if you lie about your qualifications, which
UCAS *will* check (eventually)],

<snip>
What exactly do you mean by the above? I understood it (perhaps
incorretly) that any qualifications you put down on the 'completed'
section of the form have to be proved by showing your uni.
certificates, because UCAS only check qualifications yet to be
obtained i.e. on results day...? Of course, this gentleman will have
all of his qualifications already completed, so is it not the uni.
that must verifiy, not UCAS?

Problem is, you see guvnor, that all me O level certificates were
burned when me grannies house went up in flames/lost in 37 house
moves/stolen by my evil twin brother Phillip/went down with the
Titanic.

I can't, therefore, prove it; you'll have to take me word for it;
would I lie to you guvnor? I am a mature stduent afterall...

Or something like that I suppose.

Fwir I certainly had to prove A levels and O levels in Math and
English iirc. Certainly had to reprove all of them when it came to
teacher training.

Ian

[Toby]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:29:32 +0100, Toby

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
The only

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
practical effect is that *if* you are caught out [and you most
certainly will be if you lie about your qualifications, which
UCAS *will* check (eventually)],

<snip>
What exactly do you mean by the above? I understood it (perhaps
incorretly) that any qualifications you put down on the 'completed'
section of the form have to be proved by showing your uni.
certificates, because UCAS only check qualifications yet to be
obtained i.e. on results day...? Of course, this gentleman will have
all of his qualifications already completed, so is it not the uni.
that must verifiy, not UCAS?

Problem is, you see guvnor, that all me O level certificates were
burned when me grannies house went up in flames/lost in 37 house
moves/stolen by my evil twin brother Phillip/went down with the
Titanic.
I can't, therefore, prove it; you'll have to take me word for it;
would I lie to you guvnor? I am a mature stduent afterall...
Or something like that I suppose.
Fwir I certainly had to prove A levels and O levels in Math and
English iirc. Certainly had to reprove all of them when it came to
teacher training.
Ian

How much did it cost to have those forged, then?! <runs a mile, then
two for good measure> teehee

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:30:55 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
Fwir I certainly had to prove A levels and O levels in Math and
English iirc. Certainly had to reprove all of them when it came to
teacher training.

How much did it cost to have those forged, then?! <runs a mile, then
two for good measure> teehee

I bought them, along with my 57 degrees, from a man off the internet
don't you know. Very handy.

Ian

[Toby]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:30:55 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
Fwir I certainly had to prove A levels and O levels in Math and
English iirc. Certainly had to reprove all of them when it came to
teacher training.

How much did it cost to have those forged, then?! <runs a mile, then
two for good measure> teehee

I bought them, along with my 57 degrees, from a man off the internet
don't you know. Very handy.
Ian

Bulk discount? :) (I'm not adding err insult to insult by calling you
fat, here!!)

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 22:27:14 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby
Bulk discount? :) (I'm not adding err insult to insult by calling you
fat, here!!)

I just liked the variety.

And I am getting abit fat (and a bit grey - nevermind, you only have
an impressionof me anyway....)

Ian

[Toby]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 22:27:14 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby
Bulk discount? :) (I'm not adding err insult to insult by calling you
fat, here!!)

I just liked the variety.
And I am getting abit fat (and a bit grey - nevermind, you only have
an impressionof me anyway....)
Ian

Yeah, I hear that happens after childbirth...Hmmm, something wrong
there...

[Dr A. N. Walker]

[...] your qualifications, which
UCAS *will* check (eventually)],

What exactly do you mean by the above? [...] so is it not the uni.
that must verifiy, not UCAS?

My understanding [which may well be faulty -- I make the
decisions, the admin is all done either by our support staff or
our central registry] is that the Univ asks UCAS to check against
central files. Whether this is *all* qualifications, or just
those that we don't understand and/or can't check ourselves, I
have no idea. [The real point is that *someone* -- or some
computer! -- *will* check. Also things like convictions, status,
etc., etc.]

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Dr A. N. Walker

[...] your qualifications, which
UCAS *will* check (eventually)],

What exactly do you mean by the above? [...] so is it not the uni.
that must verifiy, not UCAS?

My understanding [which may well be faulty -- I make the
decisions, the admin is all done either by our support staff or
our central registry] is that the Univ asks UCAS to check against
central files. Whether this is *all* qualifications, or just
those that we don't understand and/or can't check ourselves, I
have no idea. [The real point is that *someone* -- or some
computer! -- *will* check. Also things like convictions, status,
etc., etc.]

No, I don't think UCAS checks. It's the responsibility of the university.
In cases where students have claimed qualifications but been unable to
provide certificates to prove them it's been the university that has had
to chase them up. I've had a case in the past where a student gave up his
job for the place and then turned up for enrolment with a certificate
showing grades quite a bit lower than were on his UCAS form and I did say
"No, you lied to us, you're not getting the place". I deal with large
numbers of students offering obscure overseas qualifications, and in the
end you have to use a bit of detective work and personal judgement to
decide whether you believe them or not. This year I've had two cases of
students who turned up with transcripts from overseas universities claiming
good results in the first two years of a Computer Science degree, but when
I interviewed them they couldn't answer the most simple question on the
subject, so I suspect straight forgeries or use of someone else's
certificate. The number of near-misses I've had suggests to me there are
quite a few who do slip through the net. I'm sure too that
quite a few of those overseas students we offer places to who accept our
offer but never show up have just used it to get entry to the country.

In the case of our original enquirer, I think what he was concerned about
was student support. My understanding if that if you drop out within a year,
as I recall he did, you are entitled to full support if you start again on
another degree. For admissions purposes, I think his original attempt was
so long ago that I doubt it would be considered an important matter, and
any judgement would be made on how he is now. In general, if someone has
dropped out of a university place and is applying, I do need to look
quite carefully into why they dropped out and seek assurance that whatever
factors were involved won't happen again, and I always seek a reference
from the previous university to back up the story. But I've never had to
handle a university drop out from so far back. Also, if someone has
an unexplained gap in their CV on the UCAS form (where you have to list all
previous educaton and jobs) I will contact them to ask them to explain it.
Quite often it does turn out to be a previous attempt at a degree they have
dropped out from, and it would certainly damage their chances of my
giving them an offer if they didn't have the honesty to admit it on the
UCAS form where that information is actually required.

It should be recalled that there are more than enough university places for
anyone who wants them, resulting in the more unpopular subjects in the less
prestigious universities being quite desperate to find people to take places.
So no-one should be worried that some minor factor is going to mean they
will be unable to find a university place.

Matthew Huntbach

[Dr A. N. Walker]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
No, I don't think UCAS checks. It's the responsibility of the university.

I know it's our *responsibility*, but my understanding
[for which I offer no guarantees!] is that UCAS provides the
actual info. You obviously do a lot more, personally, than I
do; I do no checking, that's done by the Registry. But if I
say, before making a decision, "Can we check XXX, please", my
friendly neighbourhood support bod says "OK, I'll get on to
UCAS about that."

It would certainly make *sense* for UCAS to be the
repository for such info -- not just "What does a score of 73%
in the (obscure certificate provided by even more obscure
country) mean in terms of A-levels?", but also the results from
way back for all those UK boards and qualifications that are
now defunct. Of course, what makes sense and what happens on
the ground are two different things.

Post by Matthew Huntbach
In the case of our original enquirer, [...] if you drop out within a year,
as I recall he did, [...].

He *said* that he failed his finals. Could be some
misunderstanding, but that suggests he completed two years
successfully. [If so, he may (well) be entitled to a Diploma!]

[K. Edgcombe]

Post by Lenny Hawker
Now I am taking an Access course. What to do. Do I tell them I went to
uni for one year before or just leave it off the UCAS form altogether

I can't see why you want to withhold this information. I cannot imagine that
any university would think it mattered, unless there is some regulation I'm not
aware of about Access courses or about funding for University (and if you had
only one year before there shouldn't be an issue there).

It is very common indeed for people to drop out of University for health or
personal reasons and come back to higher education later.

In terms of getting a University place, it should make no difference at all.
That being so, tell the truth; it may save trouble or embarrassment later.

Katy (involved in admissions, though not often for mature students)