What does unconditional offer really mean?

[Jeffrey]

Does unconditional offer really mean you can get any A level grades or
even fail them all and still get a place? Surely not?

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Jeffrey
Does unconditional offer really mean you can get any A level grades or
even fail them all and still get a place? Surely not?

It means no further conditions are required to obtain a place. Its use is
for people who are applying to university after already having taken and
passed A-levels or equivalent qualifications.

Matthew Huntbach

[Jeffrey]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Jeffrey
Does unconditional offer really mean you can get any A level grades or
even fail them all and still get a place? Surely not?

It means no further conditions are required to obtain a place. Its use is
for people who are applying to university after already having taken and
passed A-levels or equivalent qualifications.
Matthew Huntbach

So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

[Alun Harford]

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

Never say never, but broadly speaking - no.

Alun Harford

[Jeffrey]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:43:02 +0000 (UTC), "Alun Harford"

Post by Alun Harford

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

Never say never, but broadly speaking - no.
Alun Harford

What about these AVCE/GNVQ type qualifications, when do those results
come out?

[Chris Share]

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

No. Some people get offers which are called unconditional, but they're
still dependent on getting EE, as that's what you need to go to uni in
this country.

chris

[Jeffrey]

Post by Chris Share

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

No. Some people get offers which are called unconditional, but they're
still dependent on getting EE, as that's what you need to go to uni in
this country.
chris

Ahh I think this is what I have heard people saying and am getting
confused with.. So why would uni's call it an unconditional offer when
they still need to get certain grades?

[Dr A. N. Walker]

Post by Jeffrey

Post by Chris Share

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

Not normally. [And I assume we can include IB, etc., as
"A-level results", to avoid some pedantry.] It's possible that
some students may have enough module results to be certain of
adequate grades without yet having their full results; it's also
possible that some univs may accept on the basis of AS results;
but no reputable univ is going to do this other than in very
weird circumstances.

Post by Jeffrey

Post by Chris Share
No. Some people get offers which are called unconditional, but they're
still dependent on getting EE, as that's what you need to go to uni in
this country.

That isn't an unconditional offer. If it really is an EE
offer [because this is a weak univ that only expects EE students],
then it's an EE offer. If it's "come as long as you satisfy univ
regulations", then it's a "matriculation offer" -- used to be very
common, but now rather rare [?except at Oxford?]. There is no global
"that's what you need to go to uni in this country" level. Univs
set their own entrance standards. Even the concept of "matriculation"
is now rather weak at most univs; ATs are broadly trusted by their
institutions to admit only suitable people.

Post by Jeffrey
Ahh I think this is what I have heard people saying and am getting
confused with.. So why would uni's call it an unconditional offer when
they still need to get certain grades?

Univ's wouldn't. An unconditional offer is exactly that --
one with no conditions. Note that what will actually happen this
Sunday is that the A-level results will be matched against offers,
so that most of the *conditional* offers will be turned into either
*unconditional* offers [now we know your A-level results, and there
are, for most applicants, no further conditions to meet] or rejects
[ditto].

[Matt Johnson]

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Note that what will actually happen this
Sunday is that the A-level results will be matched against offers,
so that most of the *conditional* offers will be turned into either
*unconditional* offers [now we know your A-level results, and there
are, for most applicants, no further conditions to meet] or rejects
[ditto].

And many university admissions tutors praying for good numbers (not too
many and not too few), no doubt.

- --M


- --
Matt Johnson <***@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Junior Systems Programmer
Computing Support Group

"No, the mouse is *not* a footpedal."

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
some students may have enough module results to be certain of
adequate grades without yet having their full results; it's also
possible that some univs may accept on the basis of AS results;
but no reputable univ is going to do this other than in very
weird circumstances.

What about a candidate who had, say, been an IMO gold medalist several
years running? Would that merit an unconditional offer?

[Dr A. N. Walker]

Post by Adam Atkinson
What about a candidate who had, say, been an IMO gold medalist several
years running? Would that merit an unconditional offer?

No. Some years ago, we had an applicant in exactly that
position. In those days, we interviewed, and I was only one of
the interviewers, not an AT. So I got this bloke, with a card
attached to his UCAS form, saying "Attract here if at all possible".
Asked him some simple maths Qs. He was rubbish; could do the
algebra/calculus, but not an original idea in his head. So I
gave him a "standard offer", on the basis that perhaps he was
just nervous. Another IMO and some scrotty A-levels later, he
was accepted despite not making our offer, the then AT doing so
over my dead body. After a year, he failed and left.

That same day, I interviewed a young lady of no great
merit on paper [or in the flesh, so to speak, before you ask].
She wasn't that good, but had some idea of how to attack new
problems. I gave her an EE offer. Tut, tut from the AT. She
duly *got* EE -- our second-worst qualified student ever. More
tut, tut, lots of ribbing. She did fine, and got a top 2.2.

Ever since then, I've backed my own judgement rather
than paper qualifications. Cambridge does the same -- I quite
often see applicants who are obviously utterly outstanding but
who get turned down by them, and others who are quite marginal
but get offers. Sadly, we no longer have the resources to
see anything *other than* paper qualifications, so I'm stuck.
But we do OK, on the whole ....

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by Dr A. N. Walker

Post by Adam Atkinson
What about a candidate who had, say, been an IMO gold medalist several
years running? Would that merit an unconditional offer?

No. Some years ago, we had an applicant in exactly that
position. In those days, we interviewed, and I was only one of
the interviewers, not an AT. So I got this bloke, with a card
attached to his UCAS form, saying "Attract here if at all possible".
Asked him some simple maths Qs. He was rubbish; could do the
algebra/calculus, but not an original idea in his head. So I
gave him a "standard offer", on the basis that perhaps he was
just nervous. Another IMO and some scrotty A-levels later, he
was accepted despite not making our offer, the then AT doing so
over my dead body. After a year, he failed and left.

Interesting. The IMO people I've met have all been extremely scary.

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Ever since then, I've backed my own judgement rather
than paper qualifications. Cambridge does the same -- I quite
often see applicants who are obviously utterly outstanding but
who get turned down by them, and others who are quite marginal
but get offers. Sadly, we no longer have the resources to
see anything *other than* paper qualifications, so I'm stuck.
But we do OK, on the whole ....

What makes someone obviously outstanding on paper?

[Dr A. N. Walker]

Post by Adam Atkinson
Interesting. The IMO people I've met have all been extremely scary.

Right. But the IMO has to be pretty-much acultural, so
it measures a narrow band of pure maths [in the school rather
than the univ sense]. Of course, many of the top performers are
extremely good at maths generally, but there are also some who
just have a knack for algebra/calculus/geometry of a manipulative
type, but aren't much good at the rest of maths.

For comparision, you might not want to select for English
on the basis of performance in the "Times" crossword competition.
The people who can rattle through anagrams and spot double meanings
are not necessarily the ones who can analyse poetry or write essays
on social aspects of Jane Austen [though they *are* scary and *some*
of them are no doubt v good].

Post by Adam Atkinson
What makes someone obviously outstanding on paper?

Straight A*'s at GCSE and A's at AS; possibly also one or
more A-levels taken early. Glowing reference from teachers who
would obviously like to find *something* less than perfect about
this student but can't. PS that describes someone who is just
*good* at everything -- cricket, football, playing the trombone,
takes lead in school play, helps old ladies, ..., *and* is
annoyingly interesting despite all that. As an AT, you really
want to hate them, and you just can't.

But Oxbridge doesn't always take them. I noted three or
four going through yesterday, complete with their AAAAA grades.

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by Dr A. N. Walker

Post by Adam Atkinson
Interesting. The IMO people I've met have all been extremely scary.

Right. But the IMO has to be pretty-much acultural, so
it measures a narrow band of pure maths [in the school rather
than the univ sense]. Of course, many of the top performers are
extremely good at maths generally, but there are also some who
just have a knack for algebra/calculus/geometry of a manipulative
type, but aren't much good at the rest of maths.

I guess. Of course, the IMO people I met were all at Cambridge, so it
had never occurred to me to wonder about the ones who go elsewhere.
IMO questions have never seemed to me to be quite this
straightforward, but I'm told it's possible to be coached for it.
I'm no better at IMO problems now than I was when I was 18.

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
For comparision, you might not want to select for English
on the basis of performance in the "Times" crossword competition.
The people who can rattle through anagrams and spot double meanings
are not necessarily the ones who can analyse poetry or write essays
on social aspects of Jane Austen [though they *are* scary and *some*
of them are no doubt v good].

Well, yes. Though I would have thought IMO gold medals weren't quite
_that_ bad a match.

Post by Dr A. N. Walker

Post by Adam Atkinson
What makes someone obviously outstanding on paper?

[snip]

Post by Dr A. N. Walker
But Oxbridge doesn't always take them. I noted three or
four going through yesterday, complete with their AAAAA grades.

Perhaps Oxbridge has so many of them applying it just can't take them
all. It doesn't seem likely, I'll admit. Also, since Oxbridge interviews
almost everyone it's possible that some of them let themselves down
badly in their interview - someone from the year above me at school
was clearly stellar but impressed Churchill so little in his interview
that they made him a higher than usual offer.

[Ian B.]

Post by Chris Share

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

No. Some people get offers which are called unconditional, but they're
still dependent on getting EE, as that's what you need to go to uni in
this country.

If they got AA at AS level or certain other grades at certain times it could
effectively be unconditional couldn't it?

[Toby]

Post by Chris Share

Post by Jeffrey
So 18 yr olds who have not had their A level results do not get given
unconditional offers?

No. Some people get offers which are called unconditional, but they're
still dependent on getting EE, as that's what you need to go to uni in
this country.
chris

What about properly mature students - I thought you could get in on
'experience', which I assume isn't graded? :)

Didn't Robert get in on that? (rightly - not knocking it!!)

[Robert de Vincy]

[I have a week away, come back to computer troubles, then find out
that BTInternet's "unlimited" dial-up has changed to "limited"
dial-up and that I've already exceeded my time limit for this period.
Grrr. I'll get around to answering messages... eventually. I also
see that there's a thread with my name on it. I'm a star!]

Post by Toby
What about properly mature students - I thought you could get in on
'experience', which I assume isn't graded? :)
Didn't Robert get in on that? (rightly - not knocking it!!)

I did indeed!
I was given an "unconditional offer" which, in effect, meant that I
had a place for October 2003 there and then (this was March of 2003)
with no more questions asked.

[John Porcella]

Post by Jeffrey
Does unconditional offer really mean you can get any A level grades or
even fail them all and still get a place? Surely not?

I applied to go to university AFTER my 'A' levels. I got three straight
rejections and two unconditionals. Basically, it was take me as I am or
reject me.