A Level ICT a waste of time?

[Harry Snoddon]

Some of you may remember some adverse comments from a certain
admissions tutor about the value of A level ICT.
I have just been doing some research for the AQA Module 4 'IT in
Organisations' section 13.2, searching for articles on
www.Computing.co.uk
I have been struck by the repeated message that it isn't programming
skills that are of value (jobs in this area are rapidly flowing
overseas http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1157635) but the ability
to understand IT and business processes that count.
e.g.
Look inwards before you look outwards. (Finkelstein on requirements
engineering)
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1155567
You can connect IT and the boardroom
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1157454
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1158145
Now I might be missing something but A Level ICT, certainly the AQA
spec, is all about precisely this - how to solve business problems
using ICT.
There was even one comment that we should be worried about the rapidly
declining popularity of Computing A Level, as the UK doesn't appear to
be filling this perceive IT/business skills gap - without a mention of
ICT A Level which appears to meet this need. Are ICT A numbers
increasing?
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1157635
As IT teachers, rather than computing teachers, we don't seem to be
getting the message about the value of what we are doing across.
Any views?
Mark Thomas

I suppose its not a bad subject to help cater for the students going
to the polyversities and Tony Blair reaching his target of 50% going
to uni. This is what is happening turning all these 'hobby' subjects
into degree courses, such as ceramics etc.

[Samsonknight]

Post by Harry Snoddon

Some of you may remember some adverse comments from a certain
admissions tutor about the value of A level ICT.
I have just been doing some research for the AQA Module 4 'IT in
Organisations' section 13.2, searching for articles on
www.Computing.co.uk
I have been struck by the repeated message that it isn't programming
skills that are of value (jobs in this area are rapidly flowing
overseas http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1157635) but the ability
to understand IT and business processes that count.
e.g.
Look inwards before you look outwards. (Finkelstein on requirements
engineering)
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1155567
You can connect IT and the boardroom
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1157454
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1158145
Now I might be missing something but A Level ICT, certainly the AQA
spec, is all about precisely this - how to solve business problems
using ICT.
There was even one comment that we should be worried about the rapidly
declining popularity of Computing A Level, as the UK doesn't appear to
be filling this perceive IT/business skills gap - without a mention of
ICT A Level which appears to meet this need. Are ICT A numbers
increasing?
http://www.computing.co.uk/comment/1157635
As IT teachers, rather than computing teachers, we don't seem to be
getting the message about the value of what we are doing across.
Any views?
Mark Thomas

I suppose its not a bad subject to help cater for the students going
to the polyversities and Tony Blair reaching his target of 50% going
to uni. This is what is happening turning all these 'hobby' subjects
into degree courses, such as ceramics etc.

Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any other
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities. I.E.
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the start
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my former
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have chosen
computing - but I never :(

If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think that
they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements for the
subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with general
studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote having it.

[Tina Eager]

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:03 UTC, "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Harry Snoddon
I suppose its not a bad subject to help cater for the students going
to the polyversities and Tony Blair reaching his target of 50% going
to uni. This is what is happening turning all these 'hobby' subjects
into degree courses, such as ceramics etc.

Although of course at Poly they were HND subjects. People could do them
by a variety of methods, including day release an dso on. Except of
course now they are universities and not polytechnics they can't do that
any more - everything has to be a degree.

Post by Samsonknight
Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any other
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities. I.E.
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the start
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my former
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have chosen
computing - but I never :(
If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think that
they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements for the
subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with general
studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote having it.

How can they do that? Lots of schools don't offer ICT (even more don't
offer Computing). If you are looking for prospective students it doesn't
make sense to eliminate a huge proportion of your prospective applicants
by making entry requirements they can't achieve.

[Samsonknight]

Post by Tina Eager
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:03 UTC, "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Harry Snoddon
I suppose its not a bad subject to help cater for the students going
to the polyversities and Tony Blair reaching his target of 50% going
to uni. This is what is happening turning all these 'hobby' subjects
into degree courses, such as ceramics etc.

Although of course at Poly they were HND subjects. People could do them
by a variety of methods, including day release an dso on. Except of
course now they are universities and not polytechnics they can't do that
any more - everything has to be a degree.

Post by Samsonknight
Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any other
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities. I.E.
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the start
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my former
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have chosen
computing - but I never :(
If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think that
they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements for the
subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with general
studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote having it.

How can they do that? Lots of schools don't offer ICT (even more don't
offer Computing).

Well mine did, and from talking to many other students my age that did goto
a *state school*, they also did offer ICT.

Post by Tina Eager
If you are looking for prospective students it doesn't
make sense to eliminate a huge proportion of your prospective applicants
by making entry requirements they can't achieve.

I agree with that point, very few students actually do meet the entry
requirements. From my 6th form I would say that only 10% of students did
meet the entry requirements with As and Bs, the others - well they did pass
but with lowish grades D and Es.

Post by Tina Eager
--
Tina Eager

[Tina Eager]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:00:51 UTC, "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any

other

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities.

I.E.

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the

start

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my

former

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have

chosen

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
computing - but I never :(

But that's because you (presumably) had a careers advisor who got it
wrong. People still don't know the difference between ICT and Computing.
Anyway there's nothing "Mickey Mouse" about the A2 ICT project - if done
properly.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think

that

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements for

the

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with general
studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote having it.

How can they do that? Lots of schools don't offer ICT (even more don't
offer Computing).

Well mine did, and from talking to many other students my age that did goto
a *state school*, they also did offer ICT.

Post by Tina Eager
If you are looking for prospective students it doesn't
make sense to eliminate a huge proportion of your prospective applicants
by making entry requirements they can't achieve.

I agree with that point, very few students actually do meet the entry
requirements. From my 6th form I would say that only 10% of students did
meet the entry requirements with As and Bs, the others - well they did pass
but with lowish grades D and Es.

Not quite the point I was making (or trying to), Why make Computing or
ICT A level a pre-requisite for a course when the majority of people who
might apply won't have done it. People did Computing courses before
Computing and ICT A levels and managed OK.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think
that they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements
for the subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with
general studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote
having it.

How can they do that? Lots of schools don't offer ICT (even more don't
offer Computing). If you are looking for prospective students it doesn't
make sense to eliminate a huge proportion of your prospective applicants
by making entry requirements they can't achieve.

I think "samsonknight" is actually suggesting that university Computer
Science departments actually spell out that they *don't* regard
A-level ICT as particularly useful. I have actually stated this in the
prospectus entry for Computer Science where I'm admissions tutor. In
saying this, it doesn't mean I regard A-level ICT as useless all
round, it just means I don't regard it as particularly useful for my
purposes, and also that it needs to be spelt out because in many
schools it is believed by teachers as well as pupils that A-level ICT
is the main thing university admissions tutors in Computer Science are
looking for.

Matthew Huntbach

[black dog]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
in many
schools it is believed by teachers as well as pupils that A-level ICT
is the main thing university admissions tutors in Computer Science are
looking for.

Probably because to them ICT is 'stuff about computers' and they are
using ICT and computing interchangeably.

Hard to see an ICT/Computing teacher getting that wrong though.

[Mark Thomas]

"Samsonknight" <***@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<cj73r3> >

Harry snodden?

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Harry Snoddon
I suppose its not a bad subject to help cater for the students going
to the polyversities and Tony Blair reaching his target of 50% going
to uni. This is what is happening turning all these 'hobby' subjects
into degree courses, such as ceramics etc.

Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any other
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities. I.E.
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the start
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my former
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have chosen
computing - but I never :(

I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

Post by Samsonknight
If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think that
they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements for the
subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with general
studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote having it.

Which ones?

[Michael Saunby]

Post by Mark Thomas
Harry snodden?

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Harry Snoddon
I suppose its not a bad subject to help cater for the students going
to the polyversities and Tony Blair reaching his target of 50% going
to uni. This is what is happening turning all these 'hobby' subjects
into degree courses, such as ceramics etc.

Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any other
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities. I.E.
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the start
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my former
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have chosen
computing - but I never :(

I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would

Particularly when "ceramics" was also given as an example. Much of the
wealth of the UK was built on the output of the potteries, and even today
you're still more likely to piss in a ceramic toilet than a stainless steel
one.

Having said that, with degrees now available in such wide ranging subjects,
including traditional diversions such as history of art and archaeology
(never something that contributed to the economy) and surfing (only
significant in a very few places) it's perhaps best to see the range of
available courses as existing to allow the idle classes to demonstrate
where their talent lies, rather than developing skills needed to join a
profession.

Michael Saunby

[Stuart Williams]

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!).
This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

Yes, I noticed that and was stunned: it seems unlikely that it is harder
(speaking as an amateur, the AS ICT papers look derisively easy). So it
could well be that the general standard of teaching is so bad that the
average student performs worse in ICT than in Chemistry or Economics. Or
perhaps students themselves think it a very easy subject and therefore
devote all their revision energies to other subjects. Or the coursework
scandal is still going on. Or....

SW

[Samsonknight]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!).
This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

Yes, I noticed that and was stunned: it seems unlikely that it is harder
(speaking as an amateur, the AS ICT papers look derisively easy). So it
could well be that the general standard of teaching is so bad that the
average student performs worse in ICT than in Chemistry or Economics. Or
perhaps students themselves think it a very easy subject and therefore
devote all their revision energies to other subjects. Or the coursework
scandal is still going on. Or....
SW

After completing a full A-level in ICT, I will have to say in *theory* it is
not a difficult subject. However what made it difficult was the overall
*harshness* and *stingyness* in giving marks to pupils. In examinations, it
was difficult to get very high grades such as an A - because although the
papers look relatively easy , you would have to be very precise and concise
in what you write in the exam paper - you cannot waffle like in other
subjects and still expect to get marks. Also, although the AS part of the
course looks easy in terms of examination, the examantions in A2 were much
harder as expected - especially the last module ICT 5 .

As for the coursework , I got a B in AS and an A in A2, which I find really
bizarre. As I did my A2 coursework from scratch 2 days before the final
deadline. I guess I would therefore have to agree with SW that the teaching
is probably very awful, because in order to get my A in the A2 coursework, I
totally ignored the teachers guidance booklet and followed another booklet
of which I had bought. In terms of giving marks away , I did also find that
the teachers were very strict, which was just incredibly jarring.

[John Porcella]

Post by Samsonknight
After completing a full A-level in ICT, I will have to say in *theory* it is
not a difficult subject. However what made it difficult was the overall
*harshness* and *stingyness* in giving marks to pupils.

I agree. It is quite tricky to murder the papers since they only seem to
award marks if exactly like the model answer.

In examinations, it

Post by Samsonknight
was difficult to get very high grades such as an A - because although the
papers look relatively easy , you would have to be very precise and concise

Precise, yes, but not necessarily concise.

Post by Samsonknight
in what you write in the exam paper - you cannot waffle like in other
subjects and still expect to get marks.

Yes, you can if the correct answer is in the waffle.

[John Porcella]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!).
This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

Yes, I noticed that and was stunned: it seems unlikely that it is harder
(speaking as an amateur, the AS ICT papers look derisively easy).

They are only deceptively easy. Whilst you could knock up an answer with
little difficulty for most of the written papers, the examiner is looking
for more than mere answers than "the man in the street" could give. I have
had three goes at unit 1, and only just managed an A grade the first time,
the second time my mark fell to a mid-B and by the third time I got 100%.
Frankly, though, I thought all of my attempts were equally good. The trick
is to put down an answer that the examiner wants to see, and THAT is the
difficult bit. My tactic was simple; if the examiner wanted two reasons for
something, I gave three or more so that if they did not like an answer, they
could choose another.

So it

Post by Stuart Williams
could well be that the general standard of teaching is so bad that the
average student performs worse in ICT than in Chemistry or Economics. Or
perhaps students themselves think it a very easy subject and therefore
devote all their revision energies to other subjects. Or the coursework
scandal is still going on. Or....

The examiner is aware that people think that the paper is a pushover, so has
a strict marking schedule.

[Liz Jordan]

Post by John Porcella

[snip]

They are only deceptively easy. Whilst you could knock up an answer with
little difficulty for most of the written papers, the examiner is looking
for more than mere answers than "the man in the street" could give. I have
had three goes at unit 1, and only just managed an A grade the first time,
the second time my mark fell to a mid-B and by the third time I got 100%.
Frankly, though, I thought all of my attempts were equally good. The trick
is to put down an answer that the examiner wants to see, and THAT is the
difficult bit. My tactic was simple; if the examiner wanted two reasons for
something, I gave three or more so that if they did not like an answer, they
could choose another.
[snip]

I like the idea of advising the students to play safe and give more than
asked just in case they miss the point being asked for on one of the answers
but will this work?

Are there any A level examiners out there (in particular AQA) to give advice
on this strategy. If a question asks for 2 reasons for ..... and the
candidate gives 3 where the first or second is a bit iffy, would the 3rd get
taken into account or ignored? I

[Toby]

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:22:53 +0100, "Liz Jordan"

Post by Liz Jordan

Post by John Porcella

[snip]

They are only deceptively easy. Whilst you could knock up an answer with
little difficulty for most of the written papers, the examiner is looking
for more than mere answers than "the man in the street" could give. I

have

Post by John Porcella
had three goes at unit 1, and only just managed an A grade the first time,
the second time my mark fell to a mid-B and by the third time I got 100%.
Frankly, though, I thought all of my attempts were equally good. The

trick

Post by John Porcella
is to put down an answer that the examiner wants to see, and THAT is the
difficult bit. My tactic was simple; if the examiner wanted two reasons

for

Post by John Porcella
something, I gave three or more so that if they did not like an answer,

they

Post by John Porcella
could choose another.
[snip]

I like the idea of advising the students to play safe and give more than
asked just in case they miss the point being asked for on one of the answers
but will this work?
Are there any A level examiners out there (in particular AQA) to give advice
on this strategy. If a question asks for 2 reasons for ..... and the
candidate gives 3 where the first or second is a bit iffy, would the 3rd get
taken into account or ignored? I

Surely it depends upon whether marks are taken away for bad answers,
and I don't think they are.

[Michael Saunby]

Post by Toby
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:22:53 +0100, "Liz Jordan"

Post by Liz Jordan

Post by John Porcella

[snip]

They are only deceptively easy. Whilst you could knock up an answer with
little difficulty for most of the written papers, the examiner is looking
for more than mere answers than "the man in the street" could give. I

have

Post by John Porcella
had three goes at unit 1, and only just managed an A grade the first time,
the second time my mark fell to a mid-B and by the third time I got 100%.
Frankly, though, I thought all of my attempts were equally good. The

trick

Post by John Porcella
is to put down an answer that the examiner wants to see, and THAT is the
difficult bit. My tactic was simple; if the examiner wanted two reasons

for

Post by John Porcella
something, I gave three or more so that if they did not like an answer,

they

Post by John Porcella
could choose another.
[snip]

I like the idea of advising the students to play safe and give more than
asked just in case they miss the point being asked for on one of the answers
but will this work?
Are there any A level examiners out there (in particular AQA) to give advice
on this strategy. If a question asks for 2 reasons for ..... and the
candidate gives 3 where the first or second is a bit iffy, would the 3rd get
taken into account or ignored? I

Surely it depends upon whether marks are taken away for bad answers,
and I don't think they are.

So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a single
name, or date, or some other particular value and the students writes a
long list of names, dates, or whatever?

It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions. Even the
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if 2
reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get 1/3
of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that would
still be over generous.

Michael Saunby

[John Cartmell]

Post by Michael Saunby
So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a
single name, or date, or some other particular value and the students
writes a long list of names, dates, or whatever?
It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions. Even the
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if
2 reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get
1/3 of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that
would still be over generous.

Marking schemes I've encountered would ask you to mark the first 2 and
ignore the third - or even mark them all wrong.

[John Porcella]

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Michael Saunby
So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a
single name, or date, or some other particular value and the students
writes a long list of names, dates, or whatever?
It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions. Even the
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if
2 reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get
1/3 of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that
would still be over generous.

Marking schemes I've encountered would ask you to mark the first 2 and
ignore the third - or even mark them all wrong.

Which country? Which exams?

For good or for bad, this is not the current style in 'A' levels in the UK
and certain accountancy examinations with which I am familiar.

[Tina Eager]

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:27:41 UTC, "Michael Saunby"

Post by Michael Saunby
So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a single
name, or date, or some other particular value and the students writes a
long list of names, dates, or whatever?
It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions. Even the
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if 2
reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get 1/3
of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that would
still be over generous.

My understanding is that they take the first answer and ignore the rest.

[John Porcella]

Post by Tina Eager
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:27:41 UTC, "Michael Saunby"

Post by Michael Saunby
So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a single
name, or date, or some other particular value and the students writes a
long list of names, dates, or whatever?
It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions. Even the
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if 2
reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get 1/3
of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that would
still be over generous.

My understanding is that they take the first answer and ignore the rest.

Then your understanding is not correct!

[Tina Eager]

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:36:50 UTC, "John Porcella"

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Tina Eager
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:27:41 UTC, "Michael Saunby"

Post by Michael Saunby
So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a

single

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Michael Saunby
name, or date, or some other particular value and the students writes a
long list of names, dates, or whatever?
It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions. Even the
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if

2

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Michael Saunby
reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get

1/3

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Michael Saunby
of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that

would

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Michael Saunby
still be over generous.

My understanding is that they take the first answer and ignore the rest.

Then your understanding is not correct!

Not the implication on the mark schemes I have seen.

[John Porcella]

Post by Michael Saunby
So what should happen in an extreme case where a question asks for a single
name, or date, or some other particular value and the students writes a
long list of names, dates, or whatever?

In the case where a question asks for an answer such as either 'true' or
'false', then writing both should not work, but only if the marking plan
states that there are no marks for this approach. In the unlikely event
that the exam board remain silent on this, then I would follow the
instruction to mark positively and give the marks.

I can remember in one examination, students were asked to discuss the
currency forecasts in the case study. Most students got it wrong, but I
remember one writing a lot about why it meant one thing to thing, which was
also wrong. However, by the end he was arguing the opposite case, and as
this was right, I gave him the marks (following the positive marking
dictum). However, he punished himself by spending much time writing the
other viewpoint which scored little/nothing.

Post by Michael Saunby
It ought to be a fail; they've not followed the instructions.

This negative approach to marking is the way it used to be for 'A' levels,
as a lecturer at the Institute of Education told me recently.

Even the

Post by Michael Saunby
most generous exam/examiner would surely have to weight the mark, so if 2
reasons were asked for and 3 given then each correct reason would get 1/3
of the marks for the question rather than 1/2 - and in my view that would
still be over generous.

Then you are a hard man, sir!

What if all three answers are correct? Why would you want to punish a
candidate showing off their knowledge? After all, such a candidate is
almost certainly punishing themselves since if their first two answers earn
full marks, then hanging around on the question is an opportunity cost.

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:02:35 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby
Surely it depends upon whether marks are taken away for bad answers,
and I don't think they are.

True, marks in my experience are never taken away for writing
something stupid etc.

The issue here is that tecnically it's a rubric offence - the paper
says give 2 and they give 18 or something. Or 1 and they give 4. As
Michael says it can get daft (imagine: Q. Which of A, B or C does
such-and-such; Ans: A, B, C. I *can't* mark that right....).

Having said that, in my experience at foundation geography gcse
(**very** different to A Level anything....) we'd mark whatever was on
the paper in most sensible cases. It depends upon the markscheme
really and the way in which the team interprets it.

Ian

[Toby]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:02:35 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby
Surely it depends upon whether marks are taken away for bad answers,
and I don't think they are.

True, marks in my experience are never taken away for writing
something stupid etc.
The issue here is that tecnically it's a rubric offence - the paper
says give 2 and they give 18 or something. Or 1 and they give 4. As
Michael says it can get daft (imagine: Q. Which of A, B or C does
such-and-such; Ans: A, B, C. I *can't* mark that right....).
Having said that, in my experience at foundation geography gcse
(**very** different to A Level anything....) we'd mark whatever was on
the paper in most sensible cases. It depends upon the markscheme
really and the way in which the team interprets it.
Ian

hehe ok...I was thinking more of the 'give three reasons' and they
give four, three of them right but the third wrong...Perhaps they
don't even realise they've given four, 'cause two were given in the
same sentence...The order is arbitary, unless the student is supremely
logical(!), why should marks be given in order? I know I used to write
a good answer, then maybe waffle, then focus and get to the second
answer etc..

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:23:30 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby
hehe ok...I was thinking more of the 'give three reasons' and they
give four, three of them right but the third wrong...Perhaps they
don't even realise they've given four, 'cause two were given in the
same sentence...The order is arbitary, unless the student is supremely
logical(!), why should marks be given in order? I know I used to write
a good answer, then maybe waffle, then focus and get to the second
answer etc..

Waffle, you?? *:-)*

Depends, dunnit.

Ian

[Toby]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:23:30 +0100, Toby

Post by Toby
hehe ok...I was thinking more of the 'give three reasons' and they
give four, three of them right but the third wrong...Perhaps they
don't even realise they've given four, 'cause two were given in the
same sentence...The order is arbitary, unless the student is supremely
logical(!), why should marks be given in order? I know I used to write
a good answer, then maybe waffle, then focus and get to the second
answer etc..

Waffle, you?? *:-)*
Depends, dunnit.
Ian

Dunnit? Damnit.

And *smack*

[John Porcella]

Post by Toby
hehe ok...I was thinking more of the 'give three reasons' and they
give four, three of them right but the third wrong...Perhaps they
don't even realise they've given four, 'cause two were given in the
same sentence...The order is arbitary, unless the student is supremely
logical(!), why should marks be given in order?

Good one, Toby, I had not thought of it like that!

I know I used to write

Post by Toby
a good answer, then maybe waffle, then focus and get to the second
answer etc..

This is very typical of candidates, and not just you. Therefore, such
people are punishing themselves by wasting precious examination time by
writing waffle which may score little or nothing.

[John Porcella]

Post by Toby
Surely it depends upon whether marks are taken away for bad answers,
and I don't think they are.

They are not, you are right.

[John Porcella]

Post by Liz Jordan

Post by John Porcella

[snip]

They are only deceptively easy. Whilst you could knock up an answer with
little difficulty for most of the written papers, the examiner is looking
for more than mere answers than "the man in the street" could give. I

have

Post by John Porcella
had three goes at unit 1, and only just managed an A grade the first time,
the second time my mark fell to a mid-B and by the third time I got 100%.
Frankly, though, I thought all of my attempts were equally good. The

trick

Post by John Porcella
is to put down an answer that the examiner wants to see, and THAT is the
difficult bit. My tactic was simple; if the examiner wanted two reasons

for

Post by John Porcella
something, I gave three or more so that if they did not like an answer,

they

Post by John Porcella
could choose another.
[snip]

I like the idea of advising the students to play safe and give more than
asked just in case they miss the point being asked for on one of the answers
but will this work?

I can confirm that it does work!

Firstly, as a candidate, I adopted this approach on the third sitting of ICT
1 as I could not think of any other way of ensuring that the marker would
like my answer.

Secondly, as a marker myself for another board and paper, I would rarely
come across a script where the candidate had had the time or the courage to
put an answer in excess. Where this happened, we were advised (per QCA
regulations, I think) to mark positively, which means that you have to mark
everything (including crossed-out work...so long as legible), so if asked
for two reasons/examples, and the candidate gave more that this, then you
marked the lot and gave the best combination of marks. Thankfully, not many
follow this good idea, otherwise marking would be even more of a chore. I
suspect that if everybody did this, the Exam Setter might then decide to ask
for three things!

Post by Liz Jordan
Are there any A level examiners out there (in particular AQA) to give advice
on this strategy.

See above.

If a question asks for 2 reasons for ..... and the

Post by Liz Jordan
candidate gives 3 where the first or second is a bit iffy, would the 3rd get
taken into account or ignored?

Markers have to mark everything that is presented, and are told to mark
positively. I think what stops more candidates doing this is that either it
has not occurred to them, or they do not have any more to put down or, quite
frankly, they do not have the time, since it is better to go onto the next
question rather than lingering.

[Samsonknight]

Secondly, as a marker myself for another board and >paper, I would rarely

What board and paper are you an examiner for? (wonders curiously if he has
marked my paper)

Markers have to mark everything that is presented, and are told to mark
positively. I think what stops more candidates doing this is that either it
has not occurred to them, or they do not have any more to put down or, quite
frankly, they do not have the time, since it is better to go onto the next
question rather than lingering.

Or in my case and others ,we were told that if "they ask for 2 points,write
2 points only", otherwise we risked losing all marks for that question.

[John Porcella]

Post by Samsonknight

Secondly, as a marker myself for another board and >paper, I would rarely

What board and paper are you an examiner for? (wonders curiously if he has
marked my paper)

We are not supposed to state this in public, since it might lead, perhaps,
to people trying to put pressure on markers!

Post by Samsonknight

Markers have to mark everything that is presented, and are told to mark
positively. I think what stops more candidates doing this is that

either

Post by Samsonknight

it
has not occurred to them, or they do not have any more to put down or, quite
frankly, they do not have the time, since it is better to go onto the next
question rather than lingering.

Or in my case and others ,we were told that if "they ask for 2

points,write

Post by Samsonknight
2 points only", otherwise we risked losing all marks for that question.

No, the exam boards all follow QCA regulations so they cannot simply adopt
different policies. I have marked several papers for two different subjects
for two different boards and I can assure you that there was never such a
policy on any paper with which I was involved. I suspect that the
teacher(s) that told you this were worried that people would otherwise
linger on a question when it is better to move on.

[Eatmorepies]

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

ICT is harder than maths? What is ALIS? Is this where your data came from?

John

[Stuart Williams]

Post by Eatmorepies

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

ICT is harder than maths? What is ALIS? Is this where your data came from?

No, it doesn't mean ICT is harder than Maths. ALIS simply records the
relationship between many thousands of pupils' average GCSE score (A*=8,
A=7, etc) and their subsequent A level results. It's a purely statistical
exercise that tells schools what the average student is expected to
score. If pupils with an average of e.g. 6.5 get grade B in Maths and
grade C in ICT, it doesn't mean ICT is harder than Maths - it only means
that that's what candidates tend to get. There are many possible reasons
why (see previous posts).

sw

[Richard Naylor]

Post by Eatmorepies

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

Or that the population doing ICT is at the lower end of the ability range of
the whole population doing A levels? Comparing each pupil's ICT points
score with their average points score for all the A levels they sat would be
interesting. If they are fairly close then perhaps the ICT grade boundaries
are ok. Of course there are other factors that could affect such
comparisons!

Richard

Post by Eatmorepies
ICT is harder than maths? What is ALIS? Is this where your data came from?
John

[Tina Eager]

Post by Eatmorepies

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

ICT is harder than maths? What is ALIS? Is this where your data came from?

'Tis indeed. It's almost as hard as Computing.

I'd suggest that part of the reason it's so difficult is the width of
teh subject. You have to dal with some fairly techie stuff about
networks and whate bits there are and how they work and how the bits fit
together and then you also have to deal with stuff that is more Business
Studies and about the impact of ICT in organisations. The mindset and
skills to do well in each are quite different.

[Mark Thomas]

Post by Eatmorepies

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

ICT is harder than maths? What is ALIS? Is this where your data came from?
John

My previous post with the details:

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=alis+mark+thomas+a+level&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=fVGhb.6352%24kA.1943921%40wards.force9.net&rnum=3

Chances of a good GCSE student gaining an A grade at A level:
Maths 46%, ICT 25%

As I said that doesn't mean that Maths is harder per se but that only
25% of top students rather than 46% gain grade As. It could be the
teachers, it could be the moderators, ....

[John Porcella]

Post by Eatmorepies

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

ICT is harder than maths? What is ALIS? Is this where your data came from?
John

Harder in the sense that fewer get the top grade in ICT compared to maths.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Mark Thomas
I am not sure where the 'hobby' subjects comment came from. I would
not class ICT in this way, or rate it as a Disney subject. I believe
that there is real value in what you do for ICT A Level. It is,
incidentally, statistically (ALIS) the hardest A level to get a good
grade in (much harder than Maths!). This may be either because the
standards are set too high or because the teaching is mixed.

An alternative explanation is that A-level ICT is seen as an "easy
option" subject and is thus taken predominantly by the less
intelligent sixth formers. Other A-level subjects are seen as "hard"
and are thus taken only by the more intelligent and thus achieve a
high percentage of grade As. Latin, for example has a huge proportion
of those who take it getting grade A. Does that mean Latin is a really
easy subject? No, it means that it has a reputation for being really
hard thus only those who are on track for grade A would dare take it.

I have often been told by teachers that A-level ICT is laid on for
those pupils who want to do "something with computers" but who would
struggle to pass A-level Maths or A-level Computing. Thus if someone
takes it, the chances are they are doing so because they would
struggle with Maths.

Now, the sort of skills which A-level Maths develops and tests are
essential for degree level Computer Science. There does seem to be a
correlation between them and skills in coding. However, I would have
thought the skills in abstraction and general use of logic and rules
are of value in many other areas of what industry calls "IT". If
someone is lacking in these skills, are they going to be much good in
analysing business needs and developing complex systems?

So I do believe that a lot of the reason A-level ICT seems such a
disappointment is not down to the A-level itself but down to those who
choose or are encouraged to take it. It may be all about business
analysis and user requirements and the like - fine, these are good
things for a Computer Science degree - but I rather suspect a lot of
people who take A-level ICT do so because they like playing around
with word processors and drawing packages and think A-level ICT is
just about that sort of thing. After all, that's what is meant by "IT"
earlier in schools, isn't it?

Matthew Huntbach

[Tina Eager]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
An alternative explanation is that A-level ICT is seen as an "easy
option" subject and is thus taken predominantly by the less
intelligent sixth formers.

Certainly the case in our school. It is predominantly the less able who
take it or people who are looking for a fourth choice A level and who
intend to drop it after AS. We use the ALIS stuff for grade predictions
and it seems to work OK. Even the more able students do less well at ICT
than other subjects.

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Now, the sort of skills which A-level Maths develops and tests are
essential for degree level Computer Science. There does seem to be a
correlation between them and skills in coding. However, I would have
thought the skills in abstraction and general use of logic and rules
are of value in many other areas of what industry calls "IT". If
someone is lacking in these skills, are they going to be much good in
analysing business needs and developing complex systems?

Well sorry, but I don't actually agree with you about the maths. Not
everybodywhodoes degree level Computer Science needs A level maths.
Purely personal experience of course but I did my CS on the basis of
CSE maths. I have no further experience of formal maths than that.
Still doing OK in CS though. A lot of the logic stuff I got through
Philosophy and the maths I picked up as I went along. It can be done. I
just refuse to believe I'm that unusual - I can't be the only one
surely?

Post by Matthew Huntbach
So I do believe that a lot of the reason A-level ICT seems such a
disappointment is not down to the A-level itself but down to those who
choose or are encouraged to take it. It may be all about business
analysis and user requirements and the like - fine, these are good
things for a Computer Science degree - but I rather suspect a lot of
people who take A-level ICT do so because they like playing around
with word processors and drawing packages and think A-level ICT is
just about that sort of thing. After all, that's what is meant by "IT"
earlier in schools, isn't it?

Refer you to the National Curriculum and National Strategy stuff but
basically you're right. Using packages but without really understanding
why/how they work.

[Samsonknight]

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Matthew Huntbach
An alternative explanation is that A-level ICT is seen as an "easy
option" subject and is thus taken predominantly by the less
intelligent sixth formers.

Certainly the case in our school. It is predominantly the less able who
take it or people who are looking for a fourth choice A level and who
intend to drop it after AS. We use the ALIS stuff for grade predictions
and it seems to work OK. Even the more able students do less well at ICT
than other subjects.

Great! I just got an A-level grade out of it and now it feels like such a
waste. I really hope my UCAS applications for computer science this year
will not be majorly affected as a result of me doing it. Most students that
I know that did it , did not do it because they thought it was "easy", as a
matter of fact most of the ones that wanted "easy alevels" chose Media , art
and general studies. Also, I will have to disagree with the fact that ICT is
a subject taken by "less able 6th formers", we had all sorts of people in
our class at A2 - ranging from those studying the hard sciences to those who
were not. TBH most people that were doing ICT , initially chose it because
they thought it may help them if they studied a business related degree or
like myself go onto do computer science.

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Now, the sort of skills which A-level Maths develops and tests are
essential for degree level Computer Science. There does seem to be a
correlation between them and skills in coding. However, I would have
thought the skills in abstraction and general use of logic and rules
are of value in many other areas of what industry calls "IT". If
someone is lacking in these skills, are they going to be much good in
analysing business needs and developing complex systems?

Well sorry, but I don't actually agree with you about the maths. Not
everybodywhodoes degree level Computer Science needs A level maths.
Purely personal experience of course but I did my CS on the basis of
CSE maths. I have no further experience of formal maths than that.
Still doing OK in CS though. A lot of the logic stuff I got through
Philosophy and the maths I picked up as I went along. It can be done. I
just refuse to believe I'm that unusual - I can't be the only one
surely?

After doing Alevel maths now I feel that it is very vital to do it, lets say
for example you go into games programming after your degree, wouldn't the
concepts surrounding trigonometry,differentiation and integration be handy?
Also I find that whilst doing alevel maths , your mind tends to be forced
into thinking much more logically - isn't that what programming about?

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Matthew Huntbach
So I do believe that a lot of the reason A-level ICT seems such a
disappointment is not down to the A-level itself but down to those who
choose or are encouraged to take it. It may be all about business
analysis and user requirements and the like - fine, these are good
things for a Computer Science degree - but I rather suspect a lot of
people who take A-level ICT do so because they like playing around
with word processors and drawing packages and think A-level ICT is
just about that sort of thing. After all, that's what is meant by "IT"
earlier in schools, isn't it?

Refer you to the National Curriculum and National Strategy stuff but
basically you're right. Using packages but without really understanding
why/how they work.

We understood why to use databases , or creating systems in spreadsheets.
But what did annoy students like myself that did ICT through *good
intentions* is that much of the course content was just so irrelevent, and
by the time most of us realised this - it was far too late to drop it. The
AS course was irrelevent because from doing it, it was just simply going
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it. Naturally , we all thought it would have got better in
A2, like most other subjects do, but no it didn't, ICT 4 was just like ICT 2
(just a bit more added on to it)- and instead of learning new things , it
felt so repetitive. As for ICT 5 , well I guess that was a good unit, the
rest were repetitive , and what makes it worse is that throughout the whole
course is the *harshness* in giving marks. In addition to that , the
coursework also felt very repetitive, the same process was used as in GCSE:
Analysis > Design > implementation > user guide > evaluation.

This brings me to the following conclusion - "Is ICT a easy subject?" = "No"
, Why? because simply due to the difficulty in obtaining marks in it, which
means that it requires you to work relatively hard to get marks. Hence the
less able students will end up with Ds or Es at the end.

I regret taking it , and in future I think that ICT should just be an
applied subject to those doing business studies, like statistics or
mechanics is to maths. That way, the irrelevent bits of the course would be
snipped out and students like myself will not be discriminated against for
doing a 'mickey mouse' subject. Also it will save us a lot of time by
allowing us to presue our other interests at A-level - in my case
politics/history or Art.

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by Samsonknight
But what did annoy students like myself that did ICT through *good
intentions* is that much of the course content was just so irrelevent, and
by the time most of us realised this - it was far too late to drop it. The
AS course was irrelevent because from doing it, it was just simply going
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it.

Why is "different types of networks" irrelevant? (This is not a
rhetorical question). Would e.g. knowing the difference between a hub
and a switch be something one would learn on A-level ICT? A router and
a switch?

I ought to go into WHSmiths and look at an A-level ICT book, since I
have very little idea of what's in it.

[Euan Beattie]

, it was just simply going

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it.

But a good teacher surely will not just go over all the GCSE stuff....
I think that might be a mistake many staff make and hence the dire
result of 1/4 kids nationally not passing ICT.

Post by Adam Atkinson
Why is "different types of networks" irrelevant? (This is not a
rhetorical question). Would e.g. knowing the difference between a hub
and a switch be something one would learn on A-level ICT? A router and
a switch?

Well we teach our kids it! The problem IMHO with AQA ICT is the way
in which the spec is written. Its so vague that staff can get away
with recyling GCSE... some of the textbooks are guilty of this too.
If AQA could tackle the spec then (a) staff would know what to teach
and (b) they could set some decent questions. Raise the standard...
I'd love to see a question "What is the difference between a hub and a
switch? Use a diagram to illustrate your answer." but there's no
chance of this with the current wordy and non specific specification
:-)

[Samsonknight]

Post by Samsonknight
, it was just simply going

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it.

But a good teacher surely will not just go over all the GCSE stuff....
I think that might be a mistake many staff make and hence the dire
result of 1/4 kids nationally not passing ICT.

Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off, hence the reason why I had not followed the teachers A2 guide
for coursework in A2 in order to get my A in the c/w. Also it would help if
ICT was not taught so monotonously, students would fall asleep in that
lesson and hence find it so hard because half the time we were told to goto
chapter 56 (or another chapter) read and make notes....

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Adam Atkinson
Why is "different types of networks" irrelevant? (This is not a
rhetorical question). Would e.g. knowing the difference between a hub
and a switch be something one would learn on A-level ICT? A router and
a switch?

Well we teach our kids it! The problem IMHO with AQA ICT is the way
in which the spec is written. Its so vague that staff can get away
with recyling GCSE... some of the textbooks are guilty of this too.
If AQA could tackle the spec then (a) staff would know what to teach
and (b) they could set some decent questions. Raise the standard...
I'd love to see a question "What is the difference between a hub and a
switch? Use a diagram to illustrate your answer." but there's no
chance of this with the current wordy and non specific specification
:-)

Despite having an interest in computers and passing both A-level and GCSE
ICT, I cannot answer that question...says it all really.

[John Cartmell]

Also it would help if ICT was not taught so monotonously, students would
fall asleep in that lesson and hence find it so hard because half the
time we were told to goto chapter 56 (or another chapter) read and make
notes....

Any subject can be taught badly - or well. Any subject can be taught
brilliantly. You should expect 'well' and rejoice when you're privileged to
have a brilliant teacher.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Euan Beattie
But a good teacher surely will not just go over all the GCSE stuff....
I think that might be a mistake many staff make and hence the dire
result of 1/4 kids nationally not passing ICT.

Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off, hence the reason why I had not followed the teachers A2 guide
for coursework in A2 in order to get my A in the c/w. Also it would help if
ICT was not taught so monotonously, students would fall asleep in that
lesson and hence find it so hard because half the time we were told to goto
chapter 56 (or another chapter) read and make notes....

Oh, don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of good teachers in state schools.
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds. State schools
vary enormously, but in many cases it's the sort of pupils they have that
makes the big difference. A school in some prosperous leafy suburb or
rural area will be able to do a whole lot better than a school in a run
down inner city area not because of the teachers but because of the
background of the pupils.

I am sure it is not the case that ICT is uniformly or necessarily taught
monotonously. Just because it may have been where you were does not mean
it is everywhere.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Euan Beattie
Well we teach our kids it! The problem IMHO with AQA ICT is the way
in which the spec is written. Its so vague that staff can get away
with recyling GCSE... some of the textbooks are guilty of this too.
If AQA could tackle the spec then (a) staff would know what to teach
and (b) they could set some decent questions. Raise the standard...
I'd love to see a question "What is the difference between a hub and a
switch? Use a diagram to illustrate your answer." but there's no
chance of this with the current wordy and non specific specification

Despite having an interest in computers and passing both A-level and GCSE
ICT, I cannot answer that question...says it all really.

Er yes, because from what I gather ICT isn't supposed to be about
detailed technical aspects. I looked at the AQA ICT spec myself having
got into this debate, and it was all about business information flow and
the like. It was not about the hardware of computers. So why should anyone
who has taken it be expected to know such things?

I do agree with Euan, however, the spec was *very* vague. I am sure that
good and useful things could be done on the basis of that spec. I could
also see, however, that it could very easily degenerate into a lot of
waffle with assessment based on rote memorsing definitions.

Matthew Huntbach

[Samsonknight]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Euan Beattie
But a good teacher surely will not just go over all the GCSE stuff....
I think that might be a mistake many staff make and hence the dire
result of 1/4 kids nationally not passing ICT.

Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off, hence the reason why I had not followed the teachers A2 guide
for coursework in A2 in order to get my A in the c/w. Also it would help if
ICT was not taught so monotonously, students would fall asleep in that
lesson and hence find it so hard because half the time we were told to goto
chapter 56 (or another chapter) read and make notes....

Oh, don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of good teachers in state schools.
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds. State schools
vary enormously, but in many cases it's the sort of pupils they have that
makes the big difference. A school in some prosperous leafy suburb or
rural area will be able to do a whole lot better than a school in a run
down inner city area not because of the teachers but because of the
background of the pupils.

Ok point taken, I guess I am being overly pessimistic about the quality of
teaching in my school, there were some teachers that were good.

However the teaching in the ICT department was simply rubbish. It was so bad
that my school have now shut down the department in the 6th form I was based
in and moved it to one of the other schools connected to the sixth form. I
envy those that have good teachers in the subject :)

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I am sure it is not the case that ICT is uniformly or necessarily taught
monotonously. Just because it may have been where you were does not mean
it is everywhere.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Euan Beattie
Well we teach our kids it! The problem IMHO with AQA ICT is the way
in which the spec is written. Its so vague that staff can get away
with recyling GCSE... some of the textbooks are guilty of this too.
If AQA could tackle the spec then (a) staff would know what to teach
and (b) they could set some decent questions. Raise the standard...
I'd love to see a question "What is the difference between a hub and a
switch? Use a diagram to illustrate your answer." but there's no
chance of this with the current wordy and non specific specification

Despite having an interest in computers and passing both A-level and GCSE
ICT, I cannot answer that question...says it all really.

Er yes, because from what I gather ICT isn't supposed to be about
detailed technical aspects. I looked at the AQA ICT spec myself having
got into this debate, and it was all about business information flow and
the like. It was not about the hardware of computers. So why should anyone
who has taken it be expected to know such things?

Which is why it should be an applied unit to business studies , so that
students like myself will not make the same mistake.

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I do agree with Euan, however, the spec was *very* vague. I am sure that
good and useful things could be done on the basis of that spec. I could
also see, however, that it could very easily degenerate into a lot of
waffle with assessment based on rote memorsing definitions.
Matthew Huntbach

[Stuart Williams]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off, hence the reason why I had not followed the teachers A2 guide
for coursework in A2 in order to get my A in the c/w. Also it would help if
ICT was not taught so monotonously, students would fall asleep in that
lesson and hence find it so hard because half the time we were told to goto
chapter 56 (or another chapter) read and make notes....

Oh, don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of good teachers in state schools.
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds.

This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching whatever the motivation of their
children (or their "well-connectedness") might be. In my experience, the
more motivated the pupils, the more stick they give poor teachers, and
their parents quite rightly back them up.

SW

[Dr A. N. Walker]

Post by Stuart Williams
This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching [...].

Not just parents; students too. "Interesting" times
ahead as u/gs increasingly get the impression that their fees
mean they are paying to be taught whatever they want to learn
rather than what univs want to teach.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds.

This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching whatever the motivation of their
children (or their "well-connectedness") might be. In my experience, the
more motivated the pupils, the more stick they give poor teachers, and
their parents quite rightly back them up.

How many teachers from private schools would be able to get remotely
similar results if they were dropped into teaching in a tough inner
city comprehensive? It's very easy to be a "good" teacher if you have
well motivated children from a background where education is valued.
The main thing I'm getting at is that I think the idea that difference
in performance between different schools is entirely down to the quality
of the teachers is nonsense. I would also hope it's not the case that
the private sector buys up every single one of the better quality
teachers. If it doesn't, it must logically follow that there exists
teachers in private schools who are worse teachers than some teachers
who are in state schools.

Matthew Huntbach

[Michael Saunby]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds.

This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching whatever the motivation of their
children (or their "well-connectedness") might be. In my experience, the
more motivated the pupils, the more stick they give poor teachers, and
their parents quite rightly back them up.

How many teachers from private schools would be able to get remotely
similar results if they were dropped into teaching in a tough inner
city comprehensive? It's very easy to be a "good" teacher if you have
well motivated children from a background where education is valued.
The main thing I'm getting at is that I think the idea that difference
in performance between different schools is entirely down to the quality
of the teachers is nonsense. I would also hope it's not the case that
the private sector buys up every single one of the better quality
teachers. If it doesn't, it must logically follow that there exists
teachers in private schools who are worse teachers than some teachers
who are in state schools.

Indeed teacher performance may contribute significantly, but the variation
in performance may be slight, indeed it may be less significant that
variations in pay. Particularly if one considers variations in teacher pay
across Europe.

I recall reading that the difference in performance between the top
performing FTSE companies in any given sector can be 10 times that of the
lower performing. And that's comparing listed companies which haven't gone
bankrupt. Apparently centuries ago the same could be seen in the economic
and agricultural productivity of monasteries, and I'm sure a similar factor
of 10 performance difference will be seen today in schools, universities,
etc. What you don't generally see is a factor of 10 difference in the
performance of athletes, etc. so the generally held view is that these
large variations in performance of teams, organisations, institutions, etc.
are a result of variations in management practices rather than gifted
players, teachers, programmers, etc. Of course such people make a
difference, but the difference only becomes really significant when they're
working, competing, or whatever, in an appropriately structured
environment.


Michael Saunby

[Stuart Williams]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds.

This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching whatever the motivation of their
children (or their "well-connectedness") might be. In my experience, the
more motivated the pupils, the more stick they give poor teachers, and
their parents quite rightly back them up.

How many teachers from private schools would be able to get remotely
similar results if they were dropped into teaching in a tough inner
city comprehensive? It's very easy to be a "good" teacher if you have
well motivated children from a background where education is valued.

Well, this puts us all on a hiding to nothing, doesn't it? Unless I can
point to incandescent results from the local sink school, you're not
going to allow me even to suggest that I might be a good teacher. I must
say, my idea of what a good (secondary) teacher is is closer to Andy
Walker's: interested in and knowledgeable about their subject and able to
encourage and inspire those who want to learn to become good
mathematicians or economists (or whatever). I'll say frankly that at
the age of 21 when I was deciding what sort of schools to apply to, I
consciously rejected the idea of teaching in institutions where three
quarters of the time you were struggling to get the class to shut up and
sit down (so signed on with a Direct Grant Grammar). The idea that having
motivated pupils somehow disguises or excuses bad teaching is just not
how it works in any independent school I know of (since parents can use
the maintained system - they don't come to us for our accents or
connections, believe me).

As it happens, if you dropped us into tough comps, we wouldn't be aiming
to get "remotely similar results": we'd be aiming to generate the same or
better "value added" that we do at the moment. Is it outrageous to
suggest that we might achieve just that? Or do you have to have been
brought up in One End Street in order to count for anything in this
comparison?

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The main thing I'm getting at is that I think the idea that difference
in performance between different schools is entirely down to the quality
of the teachers is nonsense.

It's been a long thread - where did someone say that?

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I would also hope it's not the case that
the private sector buys up every single one of the better quality
teachers. If it doesn't, it must logically follow that there exists
teachers in private schools who are worse teachers than some teachers
who are in state schools.

Of course: but we're making statistical generalisations, not propositions
in formal logic.

SW

[John Cartmell]

Post by Stuart Williams
As it happens, if you dropped us into tough comps, we wouldn't be aiming
to get "remotely similar results": we'd be aiming to generate the same or
better "value added" that we do at the moment. Is it outrageous to
suggest that we might achieve just that? Or do you have to have been
brought up in One End Street in order to count for anything in this
comparison?

I can't be the only one to have taught in a range of schools and found that
the outcomes I could trigger varied considerably between one school and
another. In some your concentration is on the subject and the pupils'
understanding of what you're teaching - in others you feel lucky, but
drained, to have survived another lesson.

[black dog]

Post by Stuart Williams
As it happens, if you dropped us into tough comps, we wouldn't be aiming
to get "remotely similar results": we'd be aiming to generate the same or
better "value added" that we do at the moment. Is it outrageous to
suggest that we might achieve just that? Or do you have to have been
brought up in One End Street in order to count for anything in this
comparison?

I actually knew someone from an independent school who moved to a HOD
job in a comp. I don't think he handled the behaviour much better than
me despite being a high flyer in the private sector. And this was a
good way from being a sink school.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds.

This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching whatever the motivation of their
children (or their "well-connectedness") might be.

How many teachers from private schools would be able to get remotely
similar results if they were dropped into teaching in a tough inner
city comprehensive? It's very easy to be a "good" teacher if you have
well motivated children from a background where education is valued.

Well, this puts us all on a hiding to nothing, doesn't it? Unless I can
point to incandescent results from the local sink school, you're not
going to allow me even to suggest that I might be a good teacher.

That does not follow from what I have written, which is reproduced above.
Nowhere did I write that all teachers in private schools are bad. I simply
wrote that good and bad teachers exist in private and state schools, but
that bad teachers may be able to do a better job in private schools due to
the nature of the pupils. Saying that bad teachers exist in private schools
does not imply that no good teachers exist in private schools.

Post by Stuart Williams
I must say, my idea of what a good (secondary) teacher is is closer to Andy
Walker's: interested in and knowledgeable about their subject and able to
encourage and inspire those who want to learn to become good
mathematicians or economists (or whatever). I'll say frankly that at
the age of 21 when I was deciding what sort of schools to apply to, I
consciously rejected the idea of teaching in institutions where three
quarters of the time you were struggling to get the class to shut up and
sit down (so signed on with a Direct Grant Grammar).

Indeed, but the fact that you are not having to spend three quarters of
the time struggling to get the class to shut up and sit down makes your
job much easier.

Post by Stuart Williams
The idea that having motivated pupils somehow disguises or excuses bad
teaching is just not how it works in any independent school I know of
(since parents can use the maintained system - they don't come to us for
our accents or connections, believe me).

Well, I am probably thinking of years back when there was more of this
attitude and less emphasis on exam results. I am simply questioning the
assumption that every single tecaher in every single privaet school is
some skilled expert teacher and that this is the main factor in private
schools on average achieving better exam results than state schools.

Post by Stuart Williams
As it happens, if you dropped us into tough comps, we wouldn't be aiming
to get "remotely similar results": we'd be aiming to generate the same or
better "value added" that we do at the moment. Is it outrageous to
suggest that we might achieve just that?

No, but where in anything that I have written have I said or suggested it is?
All I am doing is suggesting that if a state school in a deprived area
with lots of problem families achieves poorer exam results than a private
school which by its nature must have puoils from wealthy backgrounds with
motivated parents, that is not all down to the quality of the teachers.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The main thing I'm getting at is that I think the idea that difference
in performance between different schools is entirely down to the quality
of the teachers is nonsense.

It's been a long thread - where did someone say that?

It's a common assumption, and I think one that is very unfair on those
teachers who work in difficult circumstances. I think the assumption was
there is "samsonknight"'s claim that because he went to a state school he
had bad teachers.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I would also hope it's not the case that
the private sector buys up every single one of the better quality
teachers. If it doesn't, it must logically follow that there exists
teachers in private schools who are worse teachers than some teachers
who are in state schools.

Of course: but we're making statistical generalisations, not propositions
in formal logic.

I think this is an indication of how a bit of training in formal logic
can help clarify arguments. Your attack on me comes from making a common
error that would be shown up in any introductory logic course - confusing
"there exists an X that is Y" with "every X is Y".

Matthew Huntbach

[Stuart Williams]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools. Bad teachers can more
easily get away with being bad in private schools because they will have
good pupils from well-motivated and connected backgrounds.

This is naive, Matthew: when parents are paying many thousands of pounds
a year, they won't tolerate bad teaching whatever the motivation of their
children (or their "well-connectedness") might be.

How many teachers from private schools would be able to get remotely
similar results if they were dropped into teaching in a tough inner
city comprehensive? It's very easy to be a "good" teacher if you have
well motivated children from a background where education is valued.

Well, this puts us all on a hiding to nothing, doesn't it? Unless I can
point to incandescent results from the local sink school, you're not
going to allow me even to suggest that I might be a good teacher.

That does not follow from what I have written, which is reproduced above.
Nowhere did I write that all teachers in private schools are bad. I simply
wrote that good and bad teachers exist in private and state schools, but
that bad teachers may be able to do a better job in private schools due to
the nature of the pupils. Saying that bad teachers exist in private schools
does not imply that no good teachers exist in private schools.

Try paying less attention to the factual aspects of your posts and more
to the rhetorical clothing, which for good or ill is what people take to
be at least an equal partner in the message you intend the reader to
receive. So many of your posts these days contain the line "Where did I
say X?" with an air of baffled innocence. Try thinking about the
following phrases: "There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools"
- rhetorical payload: there are more bad teachers in private schools,
probably a lot more; "How many teachers from private schools would be
able to get remotely similar results if they were dropped into teaching
in a tough inner city comprehensive?" - rhetorical implication: hardly
any.

You've been a politician too long: your posts are too often intended to
convince by suggestion and innuendo, but when your targets take offence
you revert to "I never said any such thing".
<snip>

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Well, I am probably thinking of years back when there was more of this
attitude and less emphasis on exam results. I am simply questioning the
assumption that every single tecaher in every single privaet school is
some skilled expert teacher and that this is the main factor in private
schools on average achieving better exam results than state schools.

Now it's my turn - where did I or anyone else suggest any such nonsense?
You're setting up a straw man so you can knock him down.

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The main thing I'm getting at is that I think the idea that difference
in performance between different schools is entirely down to the quality
of the teachers is nonsense.

It's been a long thread - where did someone say that?

It's a common assumption, and I think one that is very unfair on those
teachers who work in difficult circumstances. I think the assumption was
there is "samsonknight"'s claim that because he went to a state school he
had bad teachers.

Samson claimed it - and suddenly it becomes "a common assumption" - I'm
not making it, nor I suspect is anyone else here. Who are you preaching
to then?

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I would also hope it's not the case that
the private sector buys up every single one of the better quality
teachers. If it doesn't, it must logically follow that there exists
teachers in private schools who are worse teachers than some teachers
who are in state schools.

Of course: but we're making statistical generalisations, not propositions
in formal logic.

I think this is an indication of how a bit of training in formal logic
can help clarify arguments. Your attack on me comes from making a common
error that would be shown up in any introductory logic course - confusing
"there exists an X that is Y" with "every X is Y".

Kindly don't patronise me: you did not at any point say "there is at
least one bad teacher in at least one private school". Nor did I take you
to say "Every private school teacher is bad" - if you read my post more
carefully, you'll see I complained about the burden of proof (that
one might be a good teacher) being impossible to meet ("How many private
school teachers dropped into a tough inner-city comp...etc").

You want to have your cake and eat it: to rhetoricise the debate and then
deny you have done anything of the kind. Try arguing honestly and
plainly: you'll find yourself misunderstood less often.

Stuart Williams

[Samsonknight]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
It's a common assumption, and I think one that is very unfair on those
teachers who work in difficult circumstances. I think the assumption was
there is "samsonknight"'s claim that because he went to a state school he
had bad teachers.

Samson claimed it - and suddenly it becomes "a common assumption" - I'm
not making it, nor I suspect is anyone else here. Who are you preaching
to then?

Yes, and in another thread I apologised for overly generalising the extent
of bad teaching within state schools. I am just still very annoyed about my
ICT teacher, of whom taught the subject badly , and after complaining to the
head of department on various occasions about the poor quality of teaching,
I got the stick by being told "that she knows the syllabus better, and has
taught it longer - so don't question her teaching". It is just so very
unfair how teachers that are "bad", can get away with being "bad teachers"
because often they use the excuse that they "work in difficult
circumstances" (when they really don't, as most of the students in my class
were mature by the time they got to A-levels) or in my case "they know the
syllabus better, and have taught it longer - so don't question their
teaching" and therefore when the going gets tough often they blame the
students for their underperformance in the subject.

It is only after different sets of "able" students evidently underperform
consistantly over many years in that subject that then the head of
departments start taking notice of the students concern, but by that time
the damage has already been done...

[Ian]

Post by Stuart Williams
Try paying less attention to the factual aspects of your posts and more
to the rhetorical clothing, which for good or ill is what people take to
be at least an equal partner in the message you intend the reader to
receive.

Ah yes, emotional intellicence. How do you expect your audience to feel
about what you say? Often the way its said is more important than the what
is said. Research shows that those working in technological professions
are often rather lower in EQ than IQ.

Post by Stuart Williams
So many of your posts these days contain the line "Where did I say X?"
with an air of baffled innocence.

The intersting thing is whether this is a genuine lack of understanding of
the emotional aspects of communication (low EQ) or a deliberate political
ploy. The most skillful politicians generally have high EQ and not always
very high IQ, so they instinctively know how to use emotion and "facts" to
further an argument.

Post by Stuart Williams
You've been a politician too long: your posts are too often intended to
convince by suggestion and innuendo, but when your targets take offence
you revert to "I never said any such thing".

Or maybe his EQ is not well-matched for his IQ. If he sees things purely
in terms of logic that would be a reason for being baffled at the
response.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Ian

Post by Stuart Williams
You've been a politician too long: your posts are too often intended to
convince by suggestion and innuendo, but when your targets take offence
you revert to "I never said any such thing".

Or maybe his EQ is not well-matched for his IQ. If he sees things purely
in terms of logic that would be a reason for being baffled at the
response.

I'm not baffled by the response, I can see where Stuart's coming from.
But I think he's read much more into a throw-away comment than I
intended, and the fact that he has read all this in it and now makes a
rather offensive personal attack on me says more about him that it
does about me.

All I really intended to do was defend teachers in state schools
against what I felt was a rather unfair attack on them made by
"Samsonknight". I believe there are many decent hard-working teachers
in state schools, and I felt it was unfair to suggest as
"Samsonknight" did that just because you are in a state school you
have bad teachers.

Stuart Williams now comes back and suggests I was intending some
attack by innuendo on private education. I choose to put some of my
time into my community by serving on the borough council. I am fed up
with people suggesting that as this makes me a "politician" I am some
sort of evil lying individual.

Matthew Huntbach

[Samsonknight]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Ian

Post by Stuart Williams
You've been a politician too long: your posts are too often intended to
convince by suggestion and innuendo, but when your targets take offence
you revert to "I never said any such thing".

Or maybe his EQ is not well-matched for his IQ. If he sees things purely
in terms of logic that would be a reason for being baffled at the
response.

I'm not baffled by the response, I can see where Stuart's coming from.
But I think he's read much more into a throw-away comment than I
intended, and the fact that he has read all this in it and now makes a
rather offensive personal attack on me says more about him that it
does about me.
All I really intended to do was defend teachers in state schools
against what I felt was a rather unfair attack on them made by
"Samsonknight". I believe there are many decent hard-working teachers
in state schools, and I felt it was unfair to suggest as
"Samsonknight" did that just because you are in a state school you
have bad teachers.
Stuart Williams now comes back and suggests I was intending some
attack by innuendo on private education. I choose to put some of my
time into my community by serving on the borough council. I am fed up
with people suggesting that as this makes me a "politician" I am some
sort of evil lying individual.
Matthew Huntbach

No one has been reading my threads on this part of the subject....hence the
apology and "bad teachers" that do get away with it!

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
That does not follow from what I have written, which is reproduced above.
Nowhere did I write that all teachers in private schools are bad. I simply
wrote that good and bad teachers exist in private and state schools, but
that bad teachers may be able to do a better job in private schools due to
the nature of the pupils. Saying that bad teachers exist in private schools
does not imply that no good teachers exist in private schools.

Try paying less attention to the factual aspects of your posts and more
to the rhetorical clothing, which for good or ill is what people take to
be at least an equal partner in the message you intend the reader to
receive. So many of your posts these days contain the line "Where did I
say X?" with an air of baffled innocence. Try thinking about the
following phrases: "There are plenty of bad teachers in private schools"
- rhetorical payload: there are more bad teachers in private schools,
probably a lot more;

I can only say that you have read into my remark something that I
honestly didn't intend, and it suggests to me that you have some big
chip on your shoulder that you should have read it there when it
wasn't intended.

Post by Stuart Williams
"How many teachers from private schools would be able to get remotely
similar results if they were dropped into teaching
in a tough inner city comprehensive?" - rhetorical implication: hardly
any.

"Hardly any" not as an attack on the teachers, but as a recognition of
the fact that ANY teacher is going to get better results from a class
of pupils from well-motivated and comfortable backgrounds than from a
background of deprivation and possibly active hostility to education.

Post by Stuart Williams
You've been a politician too long: your posts are too often intended to
convince by suggestion and innuendo, but when your targets take offence
you revert to "I never said any such thing".

Because I didn't say such a thing. I did not mean my remarks to be an
attack on private education and on teachers in private education. All
I meant was that they tend not to have the pressures that teachers in
some state schools have - something you yourself admitted when you
stated that you made a choice to teach in private schools because you
felt it would enable you to spend more time actually teaching and less
on classroom management.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Well, I am probably thinking of years back when there was more of this
attitude and less emphasis on exam results. I am simply questioning the
assumption that every single tecaher in every single privaet school is
some skilled expert teacher and that this is the main factor in private
schools on average achieving better exam results than state schools.

Now it's my turn - where did I or anyone else suggest any such nonsense?
You're setting up a straw man so you can knock him down.

The assumption was there in "Samsonknight"'s claim that just because
he was at a state school it folowed he had bads teachers.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
It's a common assumption, and I think one that is very unfair on those
teachers who work in difficult circumstances. I think the assumption was
there is "samsonknight"'s claim that because he went to a state school he
had bad teachers.

Samson claimed it - and suddenly it becomes "a common assumption" - I'm
not making it, nor I suspect is anyone else here. Who are you preaching
to then?

It's an attitude one quote often comes across in alt.uk.a-levels. It's
an attitude one comes across often enough in sloppy journalism. It
does infuriarate me when I come across sloppy newspaper articles which
assume every state comprehensive school is stuffed full of "bad
teachers".

Post by Stuart Williams
You want to have your cake and eat it: to rhetoricise the debate and then
deny you have done anything of the kind. Try arguing honestly and
plainly: you'll find yourself misunderstood less often.

I am arguing honestly and plainly. You have jumped to the conclusion
that I am not. I am DEEPLY offended by your suggestion that just
because I happen to give up some of my time to help my community by
serving as a borough councillor, I am someone who would deliberately
use dishonesty. In fact, at the moment I am getting rather depressed
about politics and thinking of dropping out precisely because I am fed
up with this constant attack on me which assumes that because I have a
minor political role I am automatically someone who is dishonest and
is "in it for himself". I am fed up too with political debate where
when I make points which are meant to be honest and plain I find I am
accused of some sort of hidden agenda. There are so many interesting
issues in politics which deserve good honest debates, but which don't
get them because silly sloppy lazy assumptions get in the way. And
onme of those assumptions, which particularly annoys me is this one
that says state schools in deprived areas get poor exam results
because they have "bad teachers".

Matthew Huntbach

[Samsonknight]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
That does not follow from what I have written, which is reproduced above.

The assumption was there in "Samsonknight"'s claim that just because
he was at a state school it folowed he had bads teachers.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
It's a common assumption, and I think one that is very unfair on those
teachers who work in difficult circumstances. I think the assumption was
there is "samsonknight"'s claim that because he went to a state school he
had bad teachers.

Samson claimed it - and suddenly it becomes "a common assumption" - I'm
not making it, nor I suspect is anyone else here. Who are you preaching
to then?

It's an attitude one quote often comes across in alt.uk.a-levels. It's
an attitude one comes across often enough in sloppy journalism. It
does infuriarate me when I come across sloppy newspaper articles which
assume every state comprehensive school is stuffed full of "bad
teachers".

Please read my previous thread concerning this issue, before making any more
further comments on this issue.

[Stuart Williams]

In article <***@posting.google.com>,
***@hotmail.com says...
<snip>

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I am arguing honestly and plainly. You have jumped to the conclusion
that I am not. I am DEEPLY offended by your suggestion that just
because I happen to give up some of my time to help my community by
serving as a borough councillor, I am someone who would deliberately
use dishonesty.

No: I didn't for one moment mean to imply you were dishonest: I simply
meant that to engage in face-to-face politics in the council chambers of
Lewisham, you must need to good use of persuasive rhetoric, with all its
standard devices designed to make an argument (of whatever quality) more
effective. Where I might have been questioning your good faith was your
tendency to dress reasonable arguments in rhetoric that is frankly
polemical in tone. When your readers react (or overreact, in your view),
you deny any such message or intention. I don't think that's dishonest,
because I don't think you realise that there is a gap between what you
say and the way that you say it.

Post by Matthew Huntbach
In fact, at the moment I am getting rather depressed
about politics and thinking of dropping out precisely because I am fed
up with this constant attack on me which assumes that because I have a
minor political role I am automatically someone who is dishonest and
is "in it for himself". I am fed up too with political debate where
when I make points which are meant to be honest and plain I find I am
accused of some sort of hidden agenda. There are so many interesting
issues in politics which deserve good honest debates, but which don't
get them because silly sloppy lazy assumptions get in the way. And
onme of those assumptions, which particularly annoys me is this one
that says state schools in deprived areas get poor exam results
because they have "bad teachers".

Which I don't make. But nor am I going to accept cheerily the a priori
argument that private schools must have plenty of bad teachers because
they can get away with it, students being so well motivated and so on. I
don't think it implies a chip on my shoulder if I want to point out that
independent school parents, pupils and Head Teachers these days won't
meekly accept poor teaching (as they may have done once upon a time).

Stuart Williams

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I am arguing honestly and plainly. You have jumped to the conclusion
that I am not. I am DEEPLY offended by your suggestion that just
because I happen to give up some of my time to help my community by
serving as a borough councillor, I am someone who would deliberately
use dishonesty.

No: I didn't for one moment mean to imply you were dishonest: I simply
meant that to engage in face-to-face politics in the council chambers of
Lewisham, you must need to good use of persuasive rhetoric, with all its
standard devices designed to make an argument (of whatever quality) more
effective.

Not really, local government isn't like that. There are very few occasions
on which one is called upon to make a big rhetorical speech. Who would you
be trying to persuade anyway? The few occasions on which there are big
formal votes divide on party lines and no-one outside the Town Hall will
know what you said anyway. Most local government meetings involve the
skill of being able to pick through some dry report containing pages
of statistics, work out where the issues that need further questioning are
and quietly question the local government officers on them.

Post by Stuart Williams
Where I might have been questioning your good faith was your
tendency to dress reasonable arguments in rhetoric that is frankly
polemical in tone. When your readers react (or overreact, in your view),
you deny any such message or intention. I don't think that's dishonest,
because I don't think you realise that there is a gap between what you
say and the way that you say it.

I think it's more a case of usenet as a medium - writing a short article
in a break between other things one has to be quick and miss out all the
ifs and buts.

Post by Stuart Williams
But nor am I going to accept cheerily the a priori
argument that private schools must have plenty of bad teachers because
they can get away with it, students being so well motivated and so on. I
don't think it implies a chip on my shoulder if I want to point out that
independent school parents, pupils and Head Teachers these days won't
meekly accept poor teaching (as they may have done once upon a time).

I still think you are reading much more than was intended into my remark,
and are doing so because you believe I was engaged in a polemical attack on
private schools. I don't know how I am going to convince you otherwise
if everything I say is going to be met by the accusation that it's a
rhetorical disguise intended to put across a more extreme message without
using words which literally say so. When I wrote that there were plenty of
good teachers in state schools and plenty of bad teachers in private
schools, it wasn't intended - honestly - to suggest I believed private
school teachers were on the whole worse than state school teachers. I meant
just that a range of teachers would be found in all schools, and the main
determining factor when it comes to results is the background of the
pupils, not the ability of the teachers. Thus a teacher who may not be
particularly brilliant - and so may be viewed as "bad" if he or she had
a troublesome class in a difficult state school - could well do an okay
job in the much easier to handle environment of a private school.

Matthew Huntbach

[Stuart Williams]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by Matthew Huntbach
I am arguing honestly and plainly. You have jumped to the conclusion
that I am not. I am DEEPLY offended by your suggestion that just
because I happen to give up some of my time to help my community by
serving as a borough councillor, I am someone who would deliberately
use dishonesty.

No: I didn't for one moment mean to imply you were dishonest: I simply
meant that to engage in face-to-face politics in the council chambers of
Lewisham, you must need to good use of persuasive rhetoric, with all its
standard devices designed to make an argument (of whatever quality) more
effective.

Not really, local government isn't like that. There are very few occasions
on which one is called upon to make a big rhetorical speech. Who would you
be trying to persuade anyway? The few occasions on which there are big
formal votes divide on party lines and no-one outside the Town Hall will
know what you said anyway. Most local government meetings involve the
skill of being able to pick through some dry report containing pages
of statistics, work out where the issues that need further questioning are
and quietly question the local government officers on them.

Post by Stuart Williams
Where I might have been questioning your good faith was your
tendency to dress reasonable arguments in rhetoric that is frankly
polemical in tone. When your readers react (or overreact, in your view),
you deny any such message or intention. I don't think that's dishonest,
because I don't think you realise that there is a gap between what you
say and the way that you say it.

I think it's more a case of usenet as a medium - writing a short article
in a break between other things one has to be quick and miss out all the
ifs and buts.

Post by Stuart Williams
But nor am I going to accept cheerily the a priori
argument that private schools must have plenty of bad teachers because
they can get away with it, students being so well motivated and so on. I
don't think it implies a chip on my shoulder if I want to point out that
independent school parents, pupils and Head Teachers these days won't
meekly accept poor teaching (as they may have done once upon a time).

I still think you are reading much more than was intended into my remark,
and are doing so because you believe I was engaged in a polemical attack on
private schools. I don't know how I am going to convince you otherwise
if everything I say is going to be met by the accusation that it's a
rhetorical disguise intended to put across a more extreme message without
using words which literally say so. When I wrote that there were plenty of
good teachers in state schools and plenty of bad teachers in private
schools, it wasn't intended - honestly - to suggest I believed private
school teachers were on the whole worse than state school teachers. I meant
just that a range of teachers would be found in all schools, and the main
determining factor when it comes to results is the background of the
pupils, not the ability of the teachers. Thus a teacher who may not be
particularly brilliant - and so may be viewed as "bad" if he or she had
a troublesome class in a difficult state school - could well do an okay
job in the much easier to handle environment of a private school.
Matthew Huntbach

OK - Pax. As you say - Usenet is not a very helpful medium when it comes
to reading between the lines.
BTW, I'm disappointed that Local Government is so grey: stand for the
Commons - you'd be Most Promising Liberal Backbencher in no time.......

Stuart Williams

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off,

I went to a state school and we had some excellent teachers. (Well,
I don't know what public school teachers are like of course. For
all I know, they're all transcendent beings...)

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Adam Atkinson
Why is "different types of networks" irrelevant? (This is not a
rhetorical question). Would e.g. knowing the difference between a hub
and a switch be something one would learn on A-level ICT? A router and
a switch?

Despite having an interest in computers and passing both A-level and GCSE
ICT, I cannot answer that question...says it all really.

What sort of thing do you do about networks in GCSE / A-level ICT, then?
The difference between a switch and a hub is not something I'd expect
random people in the street to know, but I'd have guessed it would
be in A-level or even GCSE. I carefully chose it to be something that
I thought might be more likely to be in ICT than in Computer Science,
though this was based on my probably wildly inaccurate idea of what
might be in ICT. I do networking for a living, and the difference
between a switch and a hub is one of the first things people learn
when they arrive in my department. I could imagine that e.g. Matthew
Huntbach doesn't know or care about the distinction, since there
may be no reason for him to know or care about this any more than
he needs to care about which sub-menu in Application Blah the wobbliser
command appears in.

As regards the same topics turning up again at A-level: that's not
necessarily so surprising. I'm sure the same happens in e.g. Biology,
Chemistry, History and Economics, but no doubt at A-level you do them
"properly".

I could imagine setting exactly the same assignment at both GCSE and
A-level, expecting more complete/sophisticated answers from A-level students.

[Samsonknight]

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off,

I went to a state school and we had some excellent teachers. (Well,
I don't know what public school teachers are like of course. For
all I know, they're all transcendent beings...)

Yeah , you do get some good teachers , however after having proper a-level
maths tutoring by an individual that teaches at a v good university
institute, I can see the inequality in the quality of teaching between the
teachers in my old school and him. Maybe, I am just being overly harsh by
generilising this for every state school , because after all each teacher is
different. But I suspect that from seeing the higher pass rates from public
schools - that their quality of teaching is 20 times better.

A lot of people may disagree with me by saying "its upto the pupil", but I
totally disagree, teaching is so much more important as it provides
guidance. One of the reasons why I and many others failed AS maths 2 years
back is because we were taught to rely on using formulas - which was not
hard when going through the EDEXCEL textbook and attempting the exercises -
but when it came to the exams we all got baffled as you have to often find
the question within the question and not just use a formula. We lacked
creativity in maths and flair , because we thought the formula would provide
the magical answer. As a result of this way of teaching being embedded in
me, I am now trying to learn maths as if it was a "language" as instructed
by my tutor by drawing graphs or by doing trial and error - its hard to
adjust to this method as I had been taught throughout GCSE and other
mathematics at academical level to rely on formulas.

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Adam Atkinson
Why is "different types of networks" irrelevant? (This is not a
rhetorical question). Would e.g. knowing the difference between a hub
and a switch be something one would learn on A-level ICT? A router and
a switch?

Despite having an interest in computers and passing both A-level and GCSE
ICT, I cannot answer that question...says it all really.

What sort of thing do you do about networks in GCSE / A-level ICT, then?
The difference between a switch and a hub is not something I'd expect
random people in the street to know, but I'd have guessed it would
be in A-level or even GCSE. I carefully chose it to be something that
I thought might be more likely to be in ICT than in Computer Science,
though this was based on my probably wildly inaccurate idea of what
might be in ICT. I do networking for a living, and the difference
between a switch and a hub is one of the first things people learn
when they arrive in my department. I could imagine that e.g. Matthew
Huntbach doesn't know or care about the distinction, since there
may be no reason for him to know or care about this any more than
he needs to care about which sub-menu in Application Blah the wobbliser
command appears in.
As regards the same topics turning up again at A-level: that's not
necessarily so surprising. I'm sure the same happens in e.g. Biology,
Chemistry, History and Economics, but no doubt at A-level you do them
"properly".

Well I don't know about the ones you have mentioned, however along with ICT
I also did RE and Psychology at A2 , both were really interesting subjects
at A2 and didn't recycle the AS stuff. At AS RE was learning about the core
beliefs in Islam and Judaism, but in A2 it became much more
historical/political and philosphical. As for Psychology, we learnt
different topics at both AS and A2. It never ever felt like the course was
running out of new things to learn, always something new learn.

Post by Adam Atkinson
I could imagine setting exactly the same assignment at both GCSE and
A-level, expecting more complete/sophisticated answers from A-level students.
--
Adam Atkinson

[Tina Eager]

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:28:21 UTC, "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight
Well I don't know about the ones you have mentioned, however along with ICT
I also did RE and Psychology at A2 , both were really interesting subjects
at A2 and didn't recycle the AS stuff. At AS RE was learning about the core
beliefs in Islam and Judaism, but in A2 it became much more
historical/political and philosphical. As for Psychology, we learnt
different topics at both AS and A2. It never ever felt like the course was
running out of new things to learn, always something new learn.

That's down to the exam board. In ICT and Computing the way the
syllabuses are written usually requires a broad coverage or the topic at
AS (to give overview of everything for those people who will drop it)
and then a revisit in more detail for the A2 people.

Now of course you could overcome the duplication issue if everybody was
prepared to take the whole A2 and AS all in one go at the end of the
course. You'd not get any resits of course. Grades would likely plummet
- but that's your choice.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Adam Atkinson
I could imagine setting exactly the same assignment at both GCSE and
A-level, expecting more complete/sophisticated answers from A-level

students.

Yeah. I'm sure it happens. Even with coursework.

[John Cartmell]

But I suspect that from seeing the higher pass rates from public schools
- that their quality of teaching is 20 times better.

Expectation.

When pupils and parents have high expectations teaching is far easier - and
far more rewarding. A good proportion of teachers will perform far below
their best when a number of pupils have low expectations and their
disaffection is supported by their parents.

[Adam Atkinson]

Post by Samsonknight
Yeah , you do get some good teachers , however after having proper a-level
maths tutoring by an individual that teaches at a v good university
institute, I can see the inequality in the quality of teaching between the
teachers in my old school and him. Maybe, I am just being overly harsh by
generilising this for every state school , because after all each teacher is
different.

Also, you haven't seen this person in front of a whole class.
One-on-one is very different.

Post by Samsonknight
But I suspect that from seeing the higher pass rates from public
schools - that their quality of teaching is 20 times better.

I don't know. As other people have said, different expectations count
for a lot.

Post by Samsonknight
but when it came to the exams we all got baffled as you have to often find
the question within the question and not just use a formula.

Well, yes.

Post by Samsonknight
We lacked
creativity in maths and flair , because we thought the formula would provide
the magical answer.

Were you given formula sheets in the exam(s)?

[Samsonknight]

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight
Yeah , you do get some good teachers , however after having proper a-level
maths tutoring by an individual that teaches at a v good university
institute, I can see the inequality in the quality of teaching between the
teachers in my old school and him. Maybe, I am just being overly harsh by
generilising this for every state school , because after all each teacher is
different.

Also, you haven't seen this person in front of a whole class.
One-on-one is very different.

Yes, but his method of teaching is completely different, teachers at my
school could have taught maths the same way but to a wider audience, but
chose not to. I am sure that he doesnt change his teaching method for
lectures the at imperial, why would he?

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight
But I suspect that from seeing the higher pass rates from public
schools - that their quality of teaching is 20 times better.

I don't know. As other people have said, different expectations count
for a lot.

Post by Samsonknight
but when it came to the exams we all got baffled as you have to often find
the question within the question and not just use a formula.

Well, yes.

Post by Samsonknight
We lacked
creativity in maths and flair , because we thought the formula would provide
the magical answer.

Were you given formula sheets in the exam(s)?

Yes, but they never had many formulas on there from what I remembered; and
the point I was trying to make was that we did lack creativity due to
overreliance on formulas. For example, if there was a question in the exam
paper about co-ordinate geometry, many of us would not try and solve the
question visually by drawing a graph and try and solve it that way, but
instead by using formulas without any real understanding of the question.If
we couldn't get the formula to work because the question requires you to use
another part of pure maths first to get to that bit in the first place, we
were stuffed.

Post by Adam Atkinson
--
In the new approach, as you know, the important thing is to understand
what you're doing, rather than to get the right answer. (T. Lehrer)

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:14:52 +0000 (UTC), "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off,

<cough, cough> Hmm, d'you hear the little oik Ginnie? Shall we break
his legs or just cut him off at the Alis's?

Careful old chap, some of us actually do that you know.

Ian

[Tony Sheppard]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:14:52 +0000 (UTC), "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off,

<cough, cough> Hmm, d'you hear the little oik Ginnie? Shall we break
his legs or just cut him off at the Alis's?
Careful old chap, some of us actually do that you know.
Ian

Perhaps he just meant that the teachers weren't "good", rather that they were
"awesome"?

No?

ok ... break out the baseball bat then.

Tony

[John Cartmell]

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:14:52 +0000 (UTC), "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off,

<cough, cough> Hmm, d'you hear the little oik Ginnie? Shall we break
his legs or just cut him off at the Alis's?
Careful old chap, some of us actually do that you know.

I hope Samsonknight notes how long it took the teachers on these school ngs
to respond - possibly indicating just how much they're working to support
their students (appreciated or not! ;-)

[Samsonknight]

Post by John Cartmell

Post by Ian/Cath Ford
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:14:52 +0000 (UTC), "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight
Well I went to a state school and unfortunantly , "good teachers" are
unheard off,

<cough, cough> Hmm, d'you hear the little oik Ginnie? Shall we break
his legs or just cut him off at the Alis's?
Careful old chap, some of us actually do that you know.

I hope Samsonknight notes how long it took the teachers on these school ngs
to respond - possibly indicating just how much they're working to support
their students (appreciated or not! ;-)
--
Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com
Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines

Yes , I apologised already for that comment! In my earlier thread . I was
just being overly pessimistic as already stated. I have had some good
teachers.

[Ian/Cath Ford]

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:23:22 +0000 (UTC), "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight
Yes , I apologised already for that comment! In my earlier thread . I was
just being overly pessimistic as already stated. I have had some good
teachers.

Oi, now don't you go spoiling all the fun now.

Bloody typical. You start having a real go and they come over all
apologetic *:-)*

Of course, I get news in, go off and write later and then get more
news in. I did see your apology, of course, but later.

Ian

[Samsonknight]

Post by Adam Atkinson

Post by Samsonknight
But what did annoy students like myself that did ICT through *good
intentions* is that much of the course content was just so irrelevent, and
by the time most of us realised this - it was far too late to drop it. The
AS course was irrelevent because from doing it, it was just simply going
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it.

Why is "different types of networks" irrelevant? (This is not a
rhetorical question). Would e.g. knowing the difference between a hub
and a switch be something one would learn on A-level ICT? A router and
a switch?
I ought to go into WHSmiths and look at an A-level ICT book, since I
have very little idea of what's in it.

Ok I guess its not irrelevent but in the ICT course it is very vague in
explanation , its ought to be much more practical if we are to learn
properly about how different networks are used and assembled in different
companies. Otherwise what is the point? And besides , you learn about the
theoritical side of networks the same way in GCSE. Well I did anyway.

Post by Adam Atkinson
--
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/recmathslibri.html

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Samsonknight
Great! I just got an A-level grade out of it and now it feels like such a
waste. I really hope my UCAS applications for computer science this year
will not be majorly affected as a result of me doing it.

Computer Science admissions tutors are well aware of the fact that many
students who want to do a Computer Science degree take it because they
are wrongly advised.

Post by Samsonknight
Most students that
I know that did it , did not do it because they thought it was "easy", as a
matter of fact most of the ones that wanted "easy alevels" chose Media , art
and general studies. Also, I will have to disagree with the fact that ICT is
a subject taken by "less able 6th formers", we had all sorts of people in
our class at A2 - ranging from those studying the hard sciences to those who
were not. TBH most people that were doing ICT , initially chose it because
they thought it may help them if they studied a business related degree or
like myself go onto do computer science.

A-level ICT may well be useful for those planning to take a business
related degree. Please don't think that because I criticise its suitability
as a preparation and assessment for a Computer Science degree that I think
it is without value altogether.

Post by Samsonknight
We understood why to use databases , or creating systems in spreadsheets.
But what did annoy students like myself that did ICT through *good
intentions* is that much of the course content was just so irrelevent, and
by the time most of us realised this - it was far too late to drop it. The
AS course was irrelevent because from doing it, it was just simply going
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it.

These are relevant things for Computer Science. The real issue is that a
Computer Science degree is mainly about analysis and problem solving.
Therfore what is required for assessment for suitability for it is
evidence that someone is good at analysis and problem solving. If someone
is able to memorise and regurgitate a whole load of computer-related
definitions (and, unfortunately, it many cases it seems that's what is
involved in getting an A-level in ICT) it may be of marginal help when
they meet the same definitions in a Computer Science degree, but it tells
us nothing about the essential skills in analysis. My experience is that
one of the biggest reasons for failure in a Computer Science degree is
an inability to distinguish between memorisation and learning. That is
why I find qualifications which can be passed through memorisation are
such bad predictors at success on the degree.

Matthew Huntbach

[John Cartmell]

If someone is able to memorise and regurgitate a whole load of
computer-related definitions (and, unfortunately, it many cases it seems
that's what is involved in getting an A-level in ICT) it may be of
marginal help when they meet the same definitions in a Computer Science
degree, but it tells us nothing about the essential skills in analysis.

The trouble is that some have tried to teach IT as the
problem-solving/analysis subject that it really is. It's only very recently
that curriculum and examination have clearly favoured the more sterile side
of the subject.

[Mark Thomas]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
These are relevant things for Computer Science. The real issue is that a
Computer Science degree is mainly about analysis and problem solving.
Therfore what is required for assessment for suitability for it is
evidence that someone is good at analysis and problem solving. If someone
is able to memorise and regurgitate a whole load of computer-related
definitions (and, unfortunately, it many cases it seems that's what is
involved in getting an A-level in ICT) it may be of marginal help when

There is a degree of regurgitation in the theory modules but in module
6 the project is analysis based. A lot depends on moderation but you
shouldn't be getting a good A level in ICT if you can't do the
analysis/problem solving.

[Tina Eager]

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:18:39 UTC, "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Tina Eager
Certainly the case in our school. It is predominantly the less able who

take it or people who are looking for a fourth choice A level and who
intend to drop it after AS. We use the ALIS stuff for grade predictions
and it seems to work OK. Even the more able students do less well at ICT
than other subjects.

Great! I just got an A-level grade out of it and now it feels like such a
waste.

How so? You just got an A in a subject which is recognised as difficult.
How is that a waste?

Post by Samsonknight
I really hope my UCAS applications for computer science this year
will not be majorly affected as a result of me doing it. Most students that
I know that did it , did not do it because they thought it was "easy", as a
matter of fact most of the ones that wanted "easy alevels" chose Media , art
and general studies. Also, I will have to disagree with the fact that ICT is
a subject taken by "less able 6th formers", we had all sorts of people in
our class at A2 - ranging from those studying the hard sciences to those who
were not. TBH most people that were doing ICT , initially chose it because
they thought it may help them if they studied a business related degree or
like myself go onto do computer science.

In our school it is the less able or the desparate who take it. The kids
who think it's just like GCSE and so they won't have to work hard or
even at all. Couldn't be more wrong of course, but that's one of the
preconceptions people have of ICT.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Tina Eager
Now, the sort of skills which A-level Maths develops and tests are
essential for degree level Computer Science. There does seem to be a
correlation between them and skills in coding.

Algebra maybe but in my experience that's not a given. But if you do D1
and D2 in Maths they are covered in A level Computing, to almost as
great a depth but as only a minor part of the syllabus.

Post by Samsonknight
However, I would have

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Tina Eager
thought the skills in abstraction and general use of logic and rules
are of value in many other areas of what industry calls "IT". If
someone is lacking in these skills, are they going to be much good in
analysing business needs and developing complex systems?

Possibly they are but if you can't express them except in some arcane
notation that nobody else "gets" what's the point? It's not just Maths
that gives those skills.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager
Well sorry, but I don't actually agree with you about the maths. Not
everybodywhodoes degree level Computer Science needs A level maths.
Purely personal experience of course but I did my CS on the basis of
CSE maths. I have no further experience of formal maths than that.
Still doing OK in CS though. A lot of the logic stuff I got through
Philosophy and the maths I picked up as I went along. It can be done. I
just refuse to believe I'm that unusual - I can't be the only one
surely?

After doing Alevel maths now I feel that it is very vital to do it, lets say
for example you go into games programming after your degree, wouldn't the
concepts surrounding trigonometry,differentiation and integration be handy?
Also I find that whilst doing alevel maths , your mind tends to be forced
into thinking much more logically - isn't that what programming about?

If that was all it was about then maybe maths would be useful. But what
programming is really about is meeting the needs of the user - reliably,
efficiently, quickly and in a way that is easy to maintain and update.
Not all users are games players.

As I understand it the Maths required for doing stuff like advanced
graphics required for games programming isn't in the A level syllabus
anyway and is taught at university as part of an advanced graphic
programming unit. Given the modularity of maths courses I'd expect that
to become the case for different sorts of maths as well. There's no
guarantee that Student X with an A grade in maths has covered anything
like the same syllabus as student Q who also has an A grade but on the
basis of taking different modules.

Some of the best programmers (as opposed to hackers) are linguists and
philosophers. They get the logic and they understand the structure of
languages, even the artificial ones of computing. Of the students I had
doing A2 Computing last year (as a typical example). The top 3 (A, A and
B grades) didn't actually do Maths A level. The guys who did do maths
were in there with Cs. FWIW one of the A grade guys actually did produce
a mod for a game as his project - without the benefit of maths, but he
did do Philosophy. He's doing Computer Science at a "top 10" university
this year.

Post by Samsonknight
We understood why to use databases , or creating systems in spreadsheets.
But what did annoy students like myself that did ICT through *good
intentions* is that much of the course content was just so irrelevent, and
by the time most of us realised this - it was far too late to drop it.

Irrelevant to/for what? Trust you were one of the students who "got"
normalisation to 3NF without any problems?

Post by Samsonknight
The
AS course was irrelevent because from doing it, it was just simply going
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it. Naturally , we all thought it would have got better in
A2, like most other subjects do, but no it didn't, ICT 4 was just like ICT 2
(just a bit more added on to it)- and instead of learning new things , it
felt so repetitive. As for ICT 5 , well I guess that was a good unit, the
rest were repetitive , and what makes it worse is that throughout the whole
course is the *harshness* in giving marks. In addition to that , the
Analysis > Design > implementation > user guide > evaluation.

Harshness as in? You mean you actually had to work at getting marks?
This is where many of our less able and less well motivated students
come unstuck. The unmotivated "I have to do another A level so I'll do
ICT because it's easy" student doesn't make the effort and the less able
student has difficulty grasping some of the concepts and content.

Post by Samsonknight
This brings me to the following conclusion - "Is ICT a easy subject?" = "No"
, Why? because simply due to the difficulty in obtaining marks in it, which
means that it requires you to work relatively hard to get marks. Hence the
less able students will end up with Ds or Es at the end.

The really less able students will be "encouraged" to drop out at AS and
not cash in their U grade. The less able but well motivated students
will make it through. The key is motivation and ability I think.

Post by Samsonknight
I regret taking it , and in future I think that ICT should just be an
applied subject to those doing business studies, like statistics or
mechanics is to maths. That way, the irrelevent bits of the course would be
snipped out and students like myself will not be discriminated against for
doing a 'mickey mouse' subject. Also it will save us a lot of time by
allowing us to presue our other interests at A-level - in my case
politics/history or Art.

But you haven't said what it is you think is irrelevant and why. A
course as broadly based as ICT can't please all the people all the time
and probably won't please any of the people all the time but that
doesn't make it irrelevant in and of itself.

[Samsonknight]

Post by Tina Eager
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:18:39 UTC, "Samsonknight"

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Tina Eager
Certainly the case in our school. It is predominantly the less able

who

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager
take it or people who are looking for a fourth choice A level and who
intend to drop it after AS. We use the ALIS stuff for grade predictions
and it seems to work OK. Even the more able students do less well at ICT
than other subjects.

Great! I just got an A-level grade out of it and now it feels like such a
waste.

How so? You just got an A in a subject which is recognised as difficult.
How is that a waste?

I got an A at GCSE and was using my A2 ICT coursework as an example of where
I got an 'A' by not following the teachers guide - hence highlighting the
problem with the teaching at the time. Overall I got a C at A-level - the
majority on my A2 set got Ds/Es. The aspect of the course I found difficult
were the actual examinations not the coursework, what I and many others
could never really understand is even though after revising the text , we
would get C's in the exam - we just didnt get why it was so hard to obtain
marks , even though we knew the *stuff*. I guess its probably because we
were not concise enough with out answers.

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
I really hope my UCAS applications for computer science this year
will not be majorly affected as a result of me doing it. Most students that
I know that did it , did not do it because they thought it was "easy", as a
matter of fact most of the ones that wanted "easy alevels" chose Media , art
and general studies. Also, I will have to disagree with the fact that ICT is
a subject taken by "less able 6th formers", we had all sorts of people in
our class at A2 - ranging from those studying the hard sciences to those who
were not. TBH most people that were doing ICT , initially chose it because
they thought it may help them if they studied a business related degree or
like myself go onto do computer science.

In our school it is the less able or the desparate who take it. The kids
who think it's just like GCSE and so they won't have to work hard or
even at all. Couldn't be more wrong of course, but that's one of the
preconceptions people have of ICT.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Tina Eager
Now, the sort of skills which A-level Maths develops and tests are
essential for degree level Computer Science. There does seem to be a
correlation between them and skills in coding.

Algebra maybe but in my experience that's not a given. But if you do D1
and D2 in Maths they are covered in A level Computing, to almost as
great a depth but as only a minor part of the syllabus.

Post by Samsonknight
However, I would have

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Tina Eager
thought the skills in abstraction and general use of logic and rules
are of value in many other areas of what industry calls "IT". If
someone is lacking in these skills, are they going to be much good in
analysing business needs and developing complex systems?

Possibly they are but if you can't express them except in some arcane
notation that nobody else "gets" what's the point? It's not just Maths
that gives those skills.

Post by Samsonknight

Post by Tina Eager
Well sorry, but I don't actually agree with you about the maths. Not
everybodywhodoes degree level Computer Science needs A level maths.
Purely personal experience of course but I did my CS on the basis of
CSE maths. I have no further experience of formal maths than that.
Still doing OK in CS though. A lot of the logic stuff I got through
Philosophy and the maths I picked up as I went along. It can be done. I
just refuse to believe I'm that unusual - I can't be the only one
surely?

After doing Alevel maths now I feel that it is very vital to do it, lets say
for example you go into games programming after your degree, wouldn't the
concepts surrounding trigonometry,differentiation and integration be handy?
Also I find that whilst doing alevel maths , your mind tends to be forced
into thinking much more logically - isn't that what programming about?

If that was all it was about then maybe maths would be useful. But what
programming is really about is meeting the needs of the user - reliably,
efficiently, quickly and in a way that is easy to maintain and update.
Not all users are games players.
As I understand it the Maths required for doing stuff like advanced
graphics required for games programming isn't in the A level syllabus
anyway and is taught at university as part of an advanced graphic
programming unit. Given the modularity of maths courses I'd expect that
to become the case for different sorts of maths as well. There's no
guarantee that Student X with an A grade in maths has covered anything
like the same syllabus as student Q who also has an A grade but on the
basis of taking different modules.
Some of the best programmers (as opposed to hackers) are linguists and
philosophers. They get the logic and they understand the structure of
languages, even the artificial ones of computing. Of the students I had
doing A2 Computing last year (as a typical example). The top 3 (A, A and
B grades) didn't actually do Maths A level. The guys who did do maths
were in there with Cs. FWIW one of the A grade guys actually did produce
a mod for a game as his project - without the benefit of maths, but he
did do Philosophy. He's doing Computer Science at a "top 10" university
this year.

Post by Samsonknight
We understood why to use databases , or creating systems in

spreadsheets.

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
But what did annoy students like myself that did ICT through *good
intentions* is that much of the course content was just so irrelevent, and
by the time most of us realised this - it was far too late to drop it.

Irrelevant to/for what? Trust you were one of the students who "got"
normalisation to 3NF without any problems?

I am guilty with normalization - yes I had problems with that at first.But
what I was referring to was the theory side of things. I found it very vague
and recycled and for the degree I want to do - not very relevent. Natrually,
I am into the more practical side of computers and so if we were to learn
about software, networks etc I would prefer to learn about how they come to
be, instead of just learning some text from a book like a parrot without any
real understanding. I feel that being much more practical with computers is
far more of an asset then learning to the theory as it can be applied to the
office environment.

I should have done A - Level Computing, but unfortunantly my School didnt
offer it , and at the time I thought ICT would be a better alternative.

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
The
AS course was irrelevent because from doing it, it was just simply going
over the same stuff in GCSE ICT - legal system, different types of
software,networks etc - which I found totally irrelevent as I did it at GCSE
and got an A in it. Naturally , we all thought it would have got better in
A2, like most other subjects do, but no it didn't, ICT 4 was just like ICT 2
(just a bit more added on to it)- and instead of learning new things , it
felt so repetitive. As for ICT 5 , well I guess that was a good unit, the
rest were repetitive , and what makes it worse is that throughout the whole
course is the *harshness* in giving marks. In addition to that , the
Analysis > Design > implementation > user guide > evaluation.

Harshness as in? You mean you actually had to work at getting marks?
This is where many of our less able and less well motivated students
come unstuck. The unmotivated "I have to do another A level so I'll do
ICT because it's easy" student doesn't make the effort and the less able
student has difficulty grasping some of the concepts and content.

Post by Samsonknight
This brings me to the following conclusion - "Is ICT a easy subject?" = "No"
, Why? because simply due to the difficulty in obtaining marks in it, which
means that it requires you to work relatively hard to get marks. Hence the
less able students will end up with Ds or Es at the end.

The really less able students will be "encouraged" to drop out at AS and
not cash in their U grade. The less able but well motivated students
will make it through. The key is motivation and ability I think.

I agree, I remembered times when I just lost all motivation for doing the
course because it got to a point where I found the course extremely
longwinded and the teaching poor. This is the reason why I feel that a good
teacher is absolutely vital for ICT if students were to pass - to make it
much more interesting and keep students motivated. My frustration in wanting
the course to be much more practical (because as a student I wanted to learn
about programming, hardware, how networks are assembled etc) led to low
morale and hence my final grade. By the last unit, I didnt take it
seriously. I enjoyed doing the coursework as it allowed me to be creative by
letting me program a bit in VBA and scored high grades BA, but that was
about it.

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Samsonknight
I regret taking it , and in future I think that ICT should just be an
applied subject to those doing business studies, like statistics or
mechanics is to maths. That way, the irrelevent bits of the course would be
snipped out and students like myself will not be discriminated against for
doing a 'mickey mouse' subject. Also it will save us a lot of time by
allowing us to presue our other interests at A-level - in my case
politics/history or Art.

But you haven't said what it is you think is irrelevant and why. A
course as broadly based as ICT can't please all the people all the time
and probably won't please any of the people all the time but that
doesn't make it irrelevant in and of itself.

Those doing business studies - I believe ICT at this level is useful which
is why I think it should in future be an applied unit. However. for students
like myself I feel that much of it is very irrelevent, fair enough you learn
about the systems life cycle (which I guess is relevent) - but you learn
about that prior to your AS project and even at GCSE - at A2 its just
basically recycling that stuff and reusing it - therefore nothing new. My
interest in the subject dropped as a result, as I wanted to expand my
knowledge...Also , for someone like myself, as I mentioned briefly int his
thread I would prefer ICT to be much more practical, that way students will
know how to implemented what they have learnt in theory, because at the
moment students just learn the textbook like parrots and stick it in the
exam paper.So tell me, how is this a true test of someones ability in the
subject? Because I am 100% sure that many students have forgotten the theory
by now as all it was when they were doing ICT copy and paste...

[black dog]

Post by Samsonknight
I agree, I remembered times when I just lost all motivation for doing the
course because it got to a point where I found the course extremely
longwinded and the teaching poor.

You've got to be pretty bloody creative to make the ICT spec even
remotely interesting. I've taught ICT and Computing and I wouldn't like
to have to do ICT again.

It's not always the teacher's fault you know.

[Samsonknight]

Post by black dog

Post by Samsonknight
I agree, I remembered times when I just lost all motivation for doing the
course because it got to a point where I found the course extremely
longwinded and the teaching poor.

You've got to be pretty bloody creative to make the ICT spec even
remotely interesting. I've taught ICT and Computing and I wouldn't like
to have to do ICT again.
It's not always the teacher's fault you know.

No it isnt, your right...But from having a very good ICT teacher at GCSE
that made the subject fun, interesting and making you want to do the work
and then comparing that to another ICT teacher that was so regimental, of
whom gave you dodgy coursework guidance booklets (that would gaurenteed you
a C at maximum) of which I avoided using and just made you just sit down and
copy notes every lesson from that big fat AQA A-level ICT White book....it
makes you wonder.

The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.
The students job is to learn and revise the class notes at home in
preperation for the exams. If the teachers make the subject so dead boring,
then how do you expect the student to give the course his/hers 100% effort.
Its not a one way street, goes both ways.

I got an A in ICT at GCSE and incidently high grades for my coursework at
A-level, and I refuse to believe that it was completely my fault for getting
a C overall at A-level. I believe that if the lessons were structured in a
much more interesting manner I would have achieved a higher grade, because I
would have been much more inclined to work harder. It is like a football
manager , his job is to nurture his football players in such a way that he
gets the best out of them. Similarly that is the case for this. Going around
making students copy out notes from the books like a parrot , is not the
right way to approach things.

[black dog]

Post by Samsonknight

Post by black dog
It's not always the teacher's fault you know.

No it isnt, your right...But from having a very good ICT teacher at GCSE
that made the subject fun, interesting and making you want to do the work
and then comparing that to another ICT teacher that was so regimental, of
whom gave you dodgy coursework guidance booklets (that would gaurenteed you
a C at maximum) of which I avoided using and just made you just sit down and
copy notes every lesson from that big fat AQA A-level ICT White book....it
makes you wonder.

Well it would be wrong of me to comment, but it sounds like you got
someone who was unsure of the subject/course or both. Getting you to
copy notes is at least 'safe' if not ideal.

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

It's also a holy grail. If you ever find a foolproof way of doing it,
you'll make a fortune.

Post by Samsonknight
The students job is to learn and revise the class notes at home in
preperation for the exams. If the teachers make the subject so dead boring,
then how do you expect the student to give the course his/hers 100% effort.
Its not a one way street, goes both ways.

Yeah, I know. But much of the ICT spec bored the pants off me too.

Post by Samsonknight
I got an A in ICT at GCSE and incidently high grades for my coursework at
A-level, and I refuse to believe that it was completely my fault for getting
a C overall at A-level. I believe that if the lessons were structured in a
much more interesting manner I would have achieved a higher grade, because I
would have been much more inclined to work harder. It is like a football
manager , his job is to nurture his football players in such a way that he
gets the best out of them. Similarly that is the case for this. Going around
making students copy out notes from the books like a parrot , is not the
right way to approach things.

I agree it's not ideal and I'll be generous and suggest there may have
been mitigating circumstances. OTOH you have learned that you should
not be reliant on the input of others to get good grades. It's a lesson
that will serve you well at university.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you have
students who are already motivated

Matthew Huntbach

[Michael Saunby]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you have
students who are already motivated

And a regime in which that is the most highly valued teaching output. God
forbid that management might fool the teachers into thinking that exam
results, or some other output was more important.

Michael Saunby

[black dog]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you have
students who are already motivated

I'd have settled for being remotely interested in being there...

[John Cartmell]

Post by black dog

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you have
students who are already motivated

I'd have settled for being remotely interested in being there...

"Why did you choose to do GCSE IT?"
"cause Miss[Head of Y9] said it was easy and I can't be bothered to do
anythin - an' wi' four of us like that it'll be right giggle"

[Samsonknight]

Post by John Cartmell

Post by black dog

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you have
students who are already motivated

I'd have settled for being remotely interested in being there...

"Why did you choose to do GCSE IT?"
"cause Miss[Head of Y9] said it was easy and I can't be bothered to do
anythin - an' wi' four of us like that it'll be right giggle"

I assure you I wasn't one of those students looking for the "easy route"
out. If I was , it would be reflected in the subjects chosen for my alevel
subjects - and the fact that I would not be *attempting* A-level maths in a
year this year as a private cadidate.

I have an active interest in computers. If there was an alternative , such
as "GCSE Computing" which was more specific to the skills I want to develop
, then I would have done that - but there wasn't.

[John Cartmell]

Post by Samsonknight

Post by black dog

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you
have students who are already motivated

I'd have settled for being remotely interested in being there...

"Why did you choose to do GCSE IT?" "cause Miss[Head of Y9] said it
was easy and I can't be bothered to do anythin - an' wi' four of us
like that it'll be right giggle"

I assure you I wasn't one of those students looking for the "easy route"
out. If I was , it would be reflected in the subjects chosen for my
alevel subjects - and the fact that I would not be *attempting* A-level
maths in a year this year as a private cadidate.
I have an active interest in computers. If there was an alternative ,
such as "GCSE Computing" which was more specific to the skills I want to
develop , then I would have done that - but there wasn't.

But as long as you do have that attitude in a class the teaching for
everyone will likely be reduced. With the very best teachers some of their
energy has to be wasted; with not so good teachers - all the energy.

[black dog]

Post by Samsonknight
I have an active interest in computers. If there was an alternative , such
as "GCSE Computing" which was more specific to the skills I want to develop
, then I would have done that - but there wasn't.

A point I've raised on more than one occasion before.

[Samsonknight]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Samsonknight
The teachers job is to motivate the class, as well as to teach the students.

Hence the point I made earlier about it being much easier if you have
students who are already motivated
Matthew Huntbach

As first I was motivated, I was so looking forward to using VBA in my
projects....But my morale decreased steadily due to the "regimental" and
"boring" teaching. I did ICT because I wanted to learn and expand my
knowledge on computers but instead I ended up getting very *frustrated* -
and when I did complain about the teachers teaching to my head of
department, I often got the stick for choosing ICT for the first place.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Tina Eager

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Now, the sort of skills which A-level Maths develops and tests are
essential for degree level Computer Science. There does seem to be a
correlation between them and skills in coding. However, I would have
thought the skills in abstraction and general use of logic and rules
are of value in many other areas of what industry calls "IT". If
someone is lacking in these skills, are they going to be much good in
analysing business needs and developing complex systems?

Well sorry, but I don't actually agree with you about the maths. Not
everybodywhodoes degree level Computer Science needs A level maths.
Purely personal experience of course but I did my CS on the basis of
CSE maths. I have no further experience of formal maths than that.
Still doing OK in CS though. A lot of the logic stuff I got through
Philosophy and the maths I picked up as I went along. It can be done. I
just refuse to believe I'm that unusual - I can't be the only one
surely?

Look a little more closely at what I've written. I didn't say the actual
content of A-level Maths was required for a Computer Science degree. I
said A-level Maths developed and tested the sort of skills a CS degree
requires. Most of the content of A-level Maths isn't found, at least in
the core modules in a CS degree. The sort of maths that is found in a CS
degree (and there are many different sorts of CS degrees, so what I mean
here is the traditional sort of CS degree taught at a research-oriented
university) is different from the sort of maths found in A-level.

So what you say is quite right - you don't actually *need* A-level Maths to
do a CS degree. However, it tends to be a good test of the right sort of
abilities. In fact I think doing it actually helps develop those abilities.
That is why A-level Maths is valued by CS admissions tutors. Someone who
hasn't taken A-level Maths may have those abilities, but won't have been
tested in them, and maybe won't have had them developed in the way that
doing A-level Maths would have done.

There is a lot of argument about this in CS education circles, but many
CS people involved in university admission to report that the strongest
correlation they can find between entrance qualifications and degree
performance is with A-level Maths. In my case I find that if a student
has a good or reasonable A-level Maths, they will almost always be able
to cope with the degree. If they hate Maths or find it hard, they almost
always will hate the degree and find it hard. If they just didn't do
A-level Maths because no-one advised them it might be a good idea, but
have no particular dislike of Maths, they may do well on the degree, they
may not - if I had a surplus of applicants, I might be inclined not to
take them on the grounds that they're a bit of a risk.

Matthew Huntbach

[Mark Thomas]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
An alternative explanation is that A-level ICT is seen as an "easy
option" subject and is thus taken predominantly by the less
intelligent sixth formers. Other A-level subjects are seen as "hard"

Sorry, you miss the point. It is not about 'less able'

A student with a GCSE point score of 6.4 is a good student. In Maths
46% of such students gain A grades at A level. In ICT only 25% of such
top students gain A grades. Its either the teaching which is poor or
that the standard is set too high. The message seems to have got
across and students are now opting for 'easier' A levels, such as
Maths.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Mark Thomas

Post by Matthew Huntbach
An alternative explanation is that A-level ICT is seen as an "easy
option" subject and is thus taken predominantly by the less
intelligent sixth formers. Other A-level subjects are seen as "hard"

Sorry, you miss the point. It is not about 'less able'
A student with a GCSE point score of 6.4 is a good student. In Maths
46% of such students gain A grades at A level. In ICT only 25% of such
top students gain A grades. Its either the teaching which is poor or
that the standard is set too high. The message seems to have got
across and students are now opting for 'easier' A levels, such as
Maths.

I only put it forward as a possible explanation. We have certainly heard a
great deal of anecdotal evidence that students are dropping Maths at
A-level because they *believe* it to be a hard subject, and also that
ICT is one of the subjects being picked up because students *believe* it
to be easy. Of course, what students believe and what is the truth may not
be the same thing.

If, as you seem to have done, evidence can be provided that students with
the same GCSE scores get higher grades in A-level Maths than A-level ICT,
then that is more convincing evidence that A-level ICT is harder than Maths
than a mere statement that more people get grade A in Maths than ICT.

Matthew Huntbach

[Mark Thomas]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
If, as you seem to have done, evidence can be provided that students with
the same GCSE scores get higher grades in A-level Maths than A-level ICT,
then that is more convincing evidence that A-level ICT is harder than Maths
than a mere statement that more people get grade A in Maths than ICT.
Matthew Huntbach

The issue is clouded by the other distinct possibility - that many A
level ICT teachers don't know what they are doing and fail to deliver
courses well enough to do their pupils justice. This is made all the
more likely by the difficulty that teachers have in interpreting the
syllabus for the problem solving U6 project.

[Euan Beattie]

Post by Mark Thomas

Post by Matthew Huntbach
If, as you seem to have done, evidence can be provided that students with
the same GCSE scores get higher grades in A-level Maths than A-level ICT,
then that is more convincing evidence that A-level ICT is harder than Maths
than a mere statement that more people get grade A in Maths than ICT.

The issue is clouded by the other distinct possibility - that many A
level ICT teachers don't know what they are doing and fail to deliver
courses well enough to do their pupils justice. This is made all the
more likely by the difficulty that teachers have in interpreting the
syllabus for the problem solving U6 project.

That's it - spot on IMHO. There are many weak ICT teachers about...
many I think that have come via the business studies/typing CLAIT type
route and are not equipped to teach systems analysis or stretch the
kids in practical lessons with more advanced features of packages.
I've been on many a course where I have been shocked by folks
questions.... "Whats a relational database", "We did our relational
databases in Excel and they were moderated down" and so on.... also
you do get a number of poor sods who say "The head says I am to teach
A Level IT, I am a Physics teacher, where do I start"...

BUT even in establishments that have qualified staff (ask some PGCE
admissions tutors what their trainees IT skills are like... you'd be
shocked!) we struggle on trying to make sense of a spec....

"Describe the required elements of network environments including
hardware, software, communications and topology."

Where do we begin? In my view ICT has become a memory game of AQA
definitions and lists... mainly thanks to the vague spec resulting
in vague questions.

Shame really.

[Liz Jordan]

Post by Euan Beattie
That's it - spot on IMHO. There are many weak ICT teachers about...
many I think that have come via the business studies/typing CLAIT type
route and are not equipped to teach systems analysis or stretch the
kids in practical lessons with more advanced features of packages.
I've been on many a course where I have been shocked by folks
questions.... "Whats a relational database", "We did our relational
databases in Excel and they were moderated down" and so on.... also
you do get a number of poor sods who say "The head says I am to teach
A Level IT, I am a Physics teacher, where do I start"...
BUT even in establishments that have qualified staff (ask some PGCE
admissions tutors what their trainees IT skills are like... you'd be
shocked!) we struggle on trying to make sense of a spec....

I once worked with a colleague who was a trained Business Studies/ICT
teacher (PGCE). When I asked him what his PGCE had covered for ICT, the
most they did was simple (ie formulae, not even functions)of Excel. He had
never seen a GCSE spec, an A level spec, had not covered anything about GNVQ
or Key skills and had not even seen a National Curriculum IT document let
alone discussed the merits/drawbacks of cross-curricula v discrete lessons
approaches.

??

Liz

[Eatmorepies]

Post by Samsonknight
Fair enough, but what about those students that were "actually" told by
career advicers that ICT was relevent for *computer science* or any other
computer type of course and also do not want to goto a polyversities. I.E.
Me . It is a bit unfair working your arse off then finding out in the start
of the A2 course that ICT was "mickey mouse". Anyway, I guess at my former
6th form if I had the choice between computing and ICT , I would have chosen
computing - but I never :(
If having A-level ICT is a massive issue for top universities - I think that
they should state it in their prospectivies under entry requirements for the
subject (in my case computer science) - like they would do with general
studies. I have looked at a few good unis , and some promote having it.

Have a look on the UCAS site to see the entry requirements for computer
science. e.g. Cardiff only specify one subject for computer science, a pass
in A level maths. Leicester want maths or computing (is ICT counted as
computing?) - both want you to have plenty of A level points.

John

[John Porcella]

I do not think that it is a waste of time. It is another qualification
which can be added to one's CV.

Getting the top grade is not easy.

There are two projects which require a substantial amount of time, effort
and knowledge.