Discussion:
How Depressing...
(too old to reply)
Dave
2004-08-19 10:35:02 UTC
Permalink
... to fall 39 points short of getting into any uni courses that I am
vaguely interested in
Toby
2004-08-19 11:01:58 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:35:02 +0100, "Dave"
Post by Dave
... to fall 39 points short of getting into any uni courses that I am
vaguely interested in
Have you contacted the admissions tutor to make sure they're not
willing to take you anyway??
Dave
2004-08-19 11:52:33 UTC
Permalink
In the process of doing so...
Dave
2004-08-19 14:04:08 UTC
Permalink
...But I just got stuck in a circle of extensions so I'll give up
Rachel
2004-08-19 15:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
...But I just got stuck in a circle of extensions so I'll give up
Don't give up.

My partner gave up on his college course, and he's now stuck in a dead end
job, and now trying to get into University the "hard way".

You've probably heard this before, so I'm sorry if I'm being
mundane/annoying.

Keep chipping away at it - and have you tried Clearing? If you're only 39
points short, I'm sure they'd let you on the course you want to do if it's
available in Clearing - although it might be in a different uni.

Take care
Rachel
Dave
2004-08-19 18:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Turns out after getting the university to ring me I was accepted at both my
firm and insurance choices but I'm going into clearing to change courses at
my insurance choice (chose because have decided to stay at home and study
locally)

Thanks for the advice

Dave
Rachel
2004-08-19 19:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Turns out after getting the university to ring me I was accepted at both my
firm and insurance choices but I'm going into clearing to change courses at
my insurance choice (chose because have decided to stay at home and study
locally)
Thanks for the advice
Dave
Yay! Well done you!! :)
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-20 07:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Turns out after getting the university to ring me I was accepted at both my
firm and insurance choices but I'm going into clearing to change courses at
my insurance choice (chose because have decided to stay at home and study
locally)
You are? Once you are accepted by your Firm choice, that's it. You can't
just "go into clearing" on a whim because you've changed your mind. I've
already had a couple of students phone me and asked to be released from
their commitments to come to the degree programme I'm admissions tutor for
and I've said "No". All other admissions tutors should do the same as that's
the only way to protect the integrity of the system.

Matthew Huntbach
Dave
2004-08-20 10:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Well I've done it, rang up Liverpool and they said they'll sort it out. They
asked them what my reason was and I told them I'm going to stay at home. It
wouldn't be a very good system if Universities held students hostage like
that.
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-20 12:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Well I've done it, rang up Liverpool and they said they'll sort it out. They
asked them what my reason was and I told them I'm going to stay at home. It
wouldn't be a very good system if Universities held students hostage like
that.
You are not being held hostage. You are simply being asked to fulfil your
part of an agreement. You wouldn't like it if you got your grades and
everything, turned up to the university to enrol and were told "Oh, we've
decided not to accept you after all, please go away". So why should
you think it any more fair to break the agreement you made the other way
round?

You made a formal legal agreement with Liverpool that if you obtained your
grades or they gave you the place anyway, you would take up that place in
return for Liverpool agreeing they would definitely hold the place open for
you. Strictly, under the terms of this agreement you can only break it if
there have been exceptional circumstances which have occurred since you made
the original agreement.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have got the impression that you can
just change on a whim and phone up any time and tell your UCAS Firm or
Insurance choice "I've decided to go elsewhere - please release me". I think
universities should do more to stop that impression rather than just giving
in to students for the sake of a quiet life.

The reason for this is not to be mean, but the whole point of the UCAS
system is to allow admissions tutors to plan ahead, knowing how many
students they have recruited and how many spare places they need to fill
under clearing. That could not be done if they ran the risk of large numbers
of students deciding after A-level results have come out that they aren't
going to go where they have commited to go to.

Matthew Huntbach
Dave
2004-08-20 13:46:47 UTC
Permalink
1. I had to make 6 decisions for university in one day
2. I did not obtain the grades they stated
3. At the Liverpool open day they said that they were only interested in
students that put them as their firm choice
4. I have no interest in paying for accomodation or paying for two train
journeys each day to get to Liverpool
5. Its better to have applied for clearing on results day than to wait for
the clearing deadline
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-20 14:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
1. I had to make 6 decisions for university in one day
2. I did not obtain the grades they stated
This makes no difference. Under the UCAS system, if you are accepted by your
Firm, or failing that, Insurance choice, you are committed to going there.
Post by Dave
3. At the Liverpool open day they said that they were only interested in
students that put them as their firm choice
They have no right to turn down students who make them Insurance. If they
make an offer and a student accepts that offer as his/her Insurance choice
they are committed to taking that student if s/he makes the grades.
Although, as you have stated they took you anyway even though you didn't
make the grades.
Post by Dave
4. I have no interest in paying for accomodation or paying for two train
journeys each day to get to Liverpool
So why on earth make Liverpool your Insurance choice then? Making a
university your Insurance choice in the UCAs system means saying "I am
making a commitment to come to you if I don't get into my Firm choice".
Post by Dave
5. Its better to have applied for clearing on results day than to wait for
the clearing deadline
That doesn't make any difference. In making Liverpool your Insurance choice,
you made a legal commitment that you would go there if they offered you a
place. Although Liverpool have been kind to you and released you, they were
under no obligation to do so.

Matthew Huntbach
Dave
2004-08-20 15:02:50 UTC
Permalink
What are you talking about. Liverpool was my firm choice, Chester was my
Insurance choice. I got accepted at both but I'm going to Chester end of
story.

BTW* I'm viewing this newsgroup on Outlook Express so I can prevent anymore
of your messages from being downloaded onto my computer so I see no more
need for your comments in this thread thankyou very much!
adam
2004-08-20 16:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
What are you talking about. Liverpool was my firm choice, Chester was my
Insurance choice. I got accepted at both but I'm going to Chester end of
story.
BTW* I'm viewing this newsgroup on Outlook Express so I can prevent anymore
of your messages from being downloaded onto my computer so I see no more
need for your comments in this thread thankyou very much!
That's a bit rude. We don't like rude people here.

And he has a point, why on earth did you make Liverpool your firm choice if
you never wanted to go there? (point 4 in your little list of random points)

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-20 16:28:57 UTC
Permalink
adam did write:

[...]
Post by adam
We don't like rude people here.
I guess you've never read a thread in which people respond to JPorc, eh?
Post by adam
And he has a point, why on earth did you make Liverpool your firm
choice if you never wanted to go there? (point 4 in your little list
of random points)
1. Youthful high-spirits.
2. Bad advice.
3. Spur-of-the-moment decision.
4. Other reasons -- think of some, it's not too difficult.

"He" (I assume you mean M Huntbach) might have a point in wondering why
someone might choose a uni as "firm" then decide not to go there in
favour of another, but the rest of the points are waaaaaay over the top.
Tying someone to a decision to go to a particular university all on the
basis of an action that takes less than a second to do? Invoking "legal"
forces to impose such a thing on someone, thereby restricting that
person's freedom? Making someone feel stupid/demeaned/told-off for what
might have been just a badly thought-out decision made months ago?
--
BdeV
adam
2004-08-20 16:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
[...]
Post by adam
We don't like rude people here.
I guess you've never read a thread in which people respond to JPorc, eh?
Post by adam
And he has a point, why on earth did you make Liverpool your firm
choice if you never wanted to go there? (point 4 in your little list
of random points)
1. Youthful high-spirits.
2. Bad advice.
3. Spur-of-the-moment decision.
4. Other reasons -- think of some, it's not too difficult.
"He" (I assume you mean M Huntbach) might have a point in wondering why
someone might choose a uni as "firm" then decide not to go there in
favour of another, but the rest of the points are waaaaaay over the top.
Tying someone to a decision to go to a particular university all on the
basis of an action that takes less than a second to do? Invoking "legal"
forces to impose such a thing on someone, thereby restricting that
person's freedom? Making someone feel stupid/demeaned/told-off for what
might have been just a badly thought-out decision made months ago?
I'm not a laywer, so I dunno about all the legal things, and also when
people make this decision and sign the forms they are often under 18 so I
don't know how legally binding it actually is.

My point is, the UCAS decision should never have been "badly thought-out",
it's an incredibly important decision that will affect at least 3 years of
your life. It's not a decision which should be made in a day by randomly
flicking through UCAS books.

The way Dave phrased point 4 implies that given more than 10 seconds thought
to it, he *never* intended to go to Liverpool, yet he put it down on his
initial choice of 6, then months later put it down as his Firm choice, and
only in the past few days realised he never intended to live away from home
or pay rent.

So it wasn't an action which took less than a second, he had months to think
about it and change his mind and inform Liverpool's admissions tutors, but
instead he waited until the very last possible moment.

If everyone was allowed to do that, the system would be chaos.

adam
Toby
2004-08-20 18:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
[...]
Post by adam
We don't like rude people here.
I guess you've never read a thread in which people respond to JPorc, eh?
okok, but I think I'm only rude in my posts to JPorc, and only because
he's askin' for it. Otherwise I'm really nice!

You bitch.
Ian/Cath Ford
2004-08-20 19:23:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:02:50 +0100, "Dave"
Post by Dave
What are you talking about. Liverpool was my firm choice, Chester was my
Insurance choice. I got accepted at both but I'm going to Chester end of
story.
Cut some slack eh chap, it can be difficultto keep track over a thread
can't it. I always used to get two people mixed up in the middle of a
thread. Easy to do.
Post by Dave
BTW* I'm viewing this newsgroup on Outlook Express so I can prevent anymore
of your messages from being downloaded onto my computer so I see no more
need for your comments in this thread thankyou very much!
Oh blimey, *please*. You know what, if I were the AT for your course
at Liverpool and read that then I'd release you now without a moments
extra thought. There's really no need to be damned rude. Matthew has
his point of view coming from a totally different position from you.
he's perfectly entitled to it. If you can't see that then maybe you
should think twice about university this year and, imo, think three or
four times about the wisdom of living at home. I'd say it might be an
advantage to live away from home so that you can get a bit more
perspective. Afterall, only big girls live at home (hi Gaurav)
**:-)**

The easiest thing to do, of course, is to go away and never post here
again. Sure, do that if you want to because, afterall we're only
being so nasty to you. But you'll miss out on a lot of really valid
opinion, some of which might actually match your own and you'll never
find out what nice people we really are with, you know, sometimes the
ability to make you change your opinion.

Fwiw I think that, if you explained your circumstances to the AT in
question, that you'd probably manage to persuade them you have a case.

Ian
--
Ian, Cath, Eoin & Calum Ford
The view from Beccles

I loved the words you wrote to me/But that was bloody yesterday

No e-mail address. If you want to talk to me then talk here to start with and we can go back to your place later...
jess
2004-08-21 15:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
1. I had to make 6 decisions for university in one day
no you didn't.
Post by Dave
2. I did not obtain the grades they stated
irrelevant if they'll still accept you.
Post by Dave
3. At the Liverpool open day they said that they were only interested
in students that put them as their firm choice
eh? they can't know whether you will or not before they make you an offer,
and once the offer is made, they can't do anything to stop you putting them
as insurance.

anyhow, i'm sure they'd be even less interested in students who put them as
firm and then change their mind.
Post by Dave
4. I have no interest in paying for accomodation or paying for two
train journeys each day to get to Liverpool
don't apply there then, and especially don't put them as your firm choice.
Post by Dave
5. Its better to have applied for clearing on results day than to
wait for the clearing deadline
how is this relevant?
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-20 15:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Dave
Well I've done it, rang up Liverpool and they said they'll sort it
out. They asked them what my reason was and I told them I'm going to
stay at home. It wouldn't be a very good system if Universities held
students hostage like that.
You are not being held hostage. You are simply being asked to fulfil
your part of an agreement. You wouldn't like it if you got your grades
and everything, turned up to the university to enrol and were told
"Oh, we've decided not to accept you after all, please go away". So
why should you think it any more fair to break the agreement you made
the other way round?
You made a formal legal agreement with Liverpool that if you obtained
your grades or they gave you the place anyway, you would take up that
place in return for Liverpool agreeing they would definitely hold the
place open for you. Strictly, under the terms of this agreement you
can only break it if there have been exceptional circumstances which
have occurred since you made the original agreement.
Is this true? That is, is such an agreement legally enforceable? Or
is it more of a "gentleman's agreement"?

If it *is* legally enforceable then is it made clear when a student
signs/returns the form? I certainly don't recall seeing any warning that
my reply had any legal aspects to it so that, in the case of my breaking
the agreement, I could be held liable. If this *is* the case, then they
sure as hell don't make a good job of making this fact painfully obvious
so that people know they're entering into that kind of contract.

Or were you using "legal" for the Scare Effect?
--
BdeV
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-20 16:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by Matthew Huntbach
You made a formal legal agreement with Liverpool that if you obtained
your grades or they gave you the place anyway, you would take up that
place in return for Liverpool agreeing they would definitely hold the
place open for you. Strictly, under the terms of this agreement you
can only break it if there have been exceptional circumstances which
have occurred since you made the original agreement.
Is this true? That is, is such an agreement legally enforceable? Or
is it more of a "gentleman's agreement"?
If it *is* legally enforceable then is it made clear when a student
signs/returns the form? I certainly don't recall seeing any warning that
my reply had any legal aspects to it so that, in the case of my breaking
the agreement, I could be held liable. If this *is* the case, then they
sure as hell don't make a good job of making this fact painfully obvious
so that people know they're entering into that kind of contract.
Or were you using "legal" for the Scare Effect?
It sure as hell would be treated as a legal agreement if a student made a
university his/her Firm choice, got the grades asked for, but then was told
"Sorry, we've now found a better student than you, so we're not going to
give you a place", wouldn't it? That student would undoubtedly be able to
take the university to court and get the court to agree that the university
had been acting against the UCAS contract.

Anyone who pulls out of a UCAS commitment is doing a rotten thing. Other
people would have been denied a place, maybe at the university they always
dreamed of going to, in order to let this person have his/her place. In
order to fill the vacated place the university will have to go into clearing
and perhaps would only be able to find students with very low grades to
fill it. That is why I am saying this idea that you can just pull out
because you have changed your mind is wrong, and students shoud be told very
clealry that's not how the system works.

Matthew Huntbach
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-20 16:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
It sure as hell would be treated as a legal agreement if a student
made a university his/her Firm choice, got the grades asked for, but
then was told "Sorry, we've now found a better student than you, so
we're not going to give you a place", wouldn't it? That student would
undoubtedly be able to take the university to court and get the court
to agree that the university had been acting against the UCAS
contract.
Anyone who pulls out of a UCAS commitment is doing a rotten thing.
Other people would have been denied a place, maybe at the university
they always dreamed of going to, in order to let this person have
his/her place. In order to fill the vacated place the university will
have to go into clearing and perhaps would only be able to find
students with very low grades to fill it. That is why I am saying this
idea that you can just pull out because you have changed your mind is
wrong, and students shoud be told very clealry that's not how the
system works.
I agree that it should be morally binding.

But is it legally binding?

If not, then your use of "formal legal agreement" is highly objectionable.

And equally highly incorrect.

That's what I am questioning in your message.
--
BdeV
Ian B.
2004-08-20 20:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by Matthew Huntbach
You made a formal legal agreement with Liverpool that if you obtained
your grades or they gave you the place anyway, you would take up that
place in return for Liverpool agreeing they would definitely hold the
place open for you. Strictly, under the terms of this agreement you
can only break it if there have been exceptional circumstances which
have occurred since you made the original agreement.
Is this true? That is, is such an agreement legally enforceable? Or
is it more of a "gentleman's agreement"?
If it *is* legally enforceable then is it made clear when a student
signs/returns the form? I certainly don't recall seeing any warning that
my reply had any legal aspects to it so that, in the case of my breaking
the agreement, I could be held liable. If this *is* the case, then they
sure as hell don't make a good job of making this fact painfully obvious
so that people know they're entering into that kind of contract.
Or were you using "legal" for the Scare Effect?
It sure as hell would be treated as a legal agreement if a student made a
university his/her Firm choice, got the grades asked for, but then was told
"Sorry, we've now found a better student than you, so we're not going to
give you a place", wouldn't it? That student would undoubtedly be able to
take the university to court and get the court to agree that the university
had been acting against the UCAS contract.
Anyone who pulls out of a UCAS commitment is doing a rotten thing. Other
people would have been denied a place, maybe at the university they always
dreamed of going to, in order to let this person have his/her place. In
order to fill the vacated place the university will have to go into clearing
and perhaps would only be able to find students with very low grades to
fill it. That is why I am saying this idea that you can just pull out
because you have changed your mind is wrong, and students shoud be told very
clealry that's not how the system works.
I don't think it's helped by misleading articles like this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3527616.stm. It implies if your
a-levels are better than expected you can get to a better university through
clearing. Is this a common myth?
Matt Johnson
2004-08-21 16:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian B.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3527616.stm. It implies if your
a-levels are better than expected you can get to a better university through
clearing. Is this a common myth?
Common myth indeed (and completely wrong)!

When you fill in the Statement of Decisions (received from UCAS when all
of your chosen courses have returned decisions), this is your FINAL
CHOICE assuming you meet the grades of at least your Insurance offer.

If you firmly accept an unconditional offer ("UF"): game over. You have
committed yourself to attending that course, you automatically decline
all other offers, the university will expect to see you there at the
beginning of their academic year.

If you firmly accept a conditional offer ("CF"), and subsequently get
the required grades **or better**: game over. You have committed
yourself to attending that course, your Insurance now have no lien over
you, and you are not permitted to enter Clearing unless released by BOTH
your Firm and Insurance choices.

If you firmly accept a conditional offer, and have a "near miss" on the
grade requirement: your CF course MAY STILL ACCEPT YOU. Your CI does not
receive a commitment to your attendance until your CF actively declines
your results.

If your CF declines you, and you have either satisfied a Conditional
Insurance ("CI") offer, or hold an Unconditional Insurance ("UI") offer:
you are committed to attending your Insurance choice.

If both CF and CI decline: you receive a Clearing Entry Form and may
enter Clearing.

So -- the only way that getting better grades than expected can lead to
access to a "better" course via Clearing is if you are released by both
your Firm and Insurance. It is in neither universities' interest to do
this in this case, of course!

If you have a genuine reason why you do not want to attend a Firm or
Insurance choice -- i.e. a change of circumstances AFTER having returned
the Statement of Decisions to UCAS:

TELL THE UNIVERSITIES AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

The sooner you ask for release (before the results!!) the more likely
they are to assent (because they have more opportunity to fill their
spaces)! Uncovering circumstances after the Release of Results and using
these to request release is going to result in Admissions Tutors
becoming rather annoyed.

If you request release from a university, and the university does not
grant it, the ONLY way to get out of a commitment is to withdraw
entirely from UCAS for that year. This means you may not attend ANY
university which is part of the UCAS scheme in that academic year. (And,
frankly, you should not expect to be considered by any university you
have 'stood up' by withdrawing from a commitment in any subsequent UCAS
round!) Equally, any British university accepting anyone who has
withdrawn from UCAS will get an extremely sharp rap on the knuckles
indeed.

The UCAS system does really work on the framework that all universities
have equal access to prospective students; universities breaking the
rules to steal high-grading students from universities they may have
committed to previously only make life harder for everyone.

So -- in answer to "anyone can get into clearing: is this a myth?": yes,
absolutely a myth.

- --M

- --
Matt Johnson <***@doc.ic.ac.uk>

"No, the mouse is *not* a footpedal."
Alex Warren
2004-08-21 23:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Johnson
Post by Ian B.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3527616.stm. It implies if your
a-levels are better than expected you can get to a better university through
clearing. Is this a common myth?
Common myth indeed (and completely wrong)!
A true "myth" perhaps. Maybe it's against the rules but it DOES happen. A lot. I
wonder if anybody has an example of somebody who *wasn't* able to do this??


Alex
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 09:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Johnson
Post by Ian B.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3527616.stm. It implies if your
a-levels are better than expected you can get to a better university through
clearing. Is this a common myth?
Common myth indeed (and completely wrong)!
When you fill in the Statement of Decisions (received from UCAS when all
of your chosen courses have returned decisions), this is your FINAL
CHOICE assuming you meet the grades of at least your Insurance offer.
Indeed. I am infuriated by articles such as this one published by the BBC,
and I have seen other sources write similarly. They are plain WRONG. The
conditions under which the UCAS system operates make it quite clear that
your Firm and Insurance choice is your final choice and can only be broken
if exceptional personal circumstances occur after you have made those
choices. It is spelt out quite clearly in the UCAS guidelines that
universities MUST NOT release applicants from their UCAS commitments unless
exceptional personal circumstances have arisen, and that a last minute
change of mind or the achievement of better than expected results do not
count as circumstances which allow the commitment to be broken.

My concern is that applicants now seem to assume they can phone after the
A-level results come out and say "I want a release, send me one as soon as
possible" and they will get it. All I am asking is that it needs to be made
more clear that this is not an acceptable way of using the system, and that
universities don't acquiesce in it by allowing it.
Post by Matt Johnson
If you have a genuine reason why you do not want to attend a Firm or
Insurance choice -- i.e. a change of circumstances AFTER having returned
TELL THE UNIVERSITIES AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
The sooner you ask for release (before the results!!) the more likely
they are to assent (because they have more opportunity to fill their
spaces)! Uncovering circumstances after the Release of Results and using
these to request release is going to result in Admissions Tutors
becoming rather annoyed.
Indeed. It's when the A-level results come out that most university places
are allocated, so it's going to be annoying but not cause too much harm if
the request for a release arrives before that. Where real damage is caused
is when the request arrives after A-level results have come, and other
people have been rejected and it's too late to get them back.

Matthew Huntbach
adam
2004-08-23 12:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Matt Johnson
Post by Ian B.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3527616.stm. It implies if your
a-levels are better than expected you can get to a better university through
clearing. Is this a common myth?
Common myth indeed (and completely wrong)!
When you fill in the Statement of Decisions (received from UCAS when all
of your chosen courses have returned decisions), this is your FINAL
CHOICE assuming you meet the grades of at least your Insurance offer.
Indeed. I am infuriated by articles such as this one published by the BBC,
and I have seen other sources write similarly. They are plain WRONG. The
conditions under which the UCAS system operates make it quite clear that
your Firm and Insurance choice is your final choice and can only be broken
if exceptional personal circumstances occur after you have made those
choices. It is spelt out quite clearly in the UCAS guidelines that
universities MUST NOT release applicants from their UCAS commitments unless
exceptional personal circumstances have arisen, and that a last minute
change of mind or the achievement of better than expected results do not
count as circumstances which allow the commitment to be broken.
As far as I can tell, the BBC article isn't wrong, it's just highly
misleading.

They are saying that if you haven't applied to university, and you get
better grades than expected, you can apply through clearing to university.
Which is okay right? Cos you haven't made any Firm or Insurance choices,
you just weren't ever intending to go to university.

By "a more prestigious course" in the second paragraph, they mean one which
isn't a degree program applied to through UCAS.

adam
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 13:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Ian B.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3527616.stm. It implies if your
a-levels are better than expected you can get to a better university
through clearing. Is this a common myth?
Indeed. I am infuriated by articles such as this one published by the BBC,
and I have seen other sources write similarly. They are plain WRONG.
As far as I can tell, the BBC article isn't wrong, it's just highly
misleading.
They are saying that if you haven't applied to university, and you get
better grades than expected, you can apply through clearing to university.
Which is okay right? Cos you haven't made any Firm or Insurance choices,
you just weren't ever intending to go to university.
By "a more prestigious course" in the second paragraph, they mean one which
isn't a degree program applied to through UCAS.
Well, the first two paragraphs read:

"Students who do not get the results they were hoping for
at A-level or in their Highers are being reminded they
may still get a place on a university course.

Others, who get a pleasant surprise and find they have
done far better than expected, may want to consider changing
to a more prestigious course."

This is accompanied by the standard A-level picture of girlies in skimpy
clothes (don't boys *ever* get A-levels?) captioned "Even good results can
lead to a change in direction).

The obvious way of interpreting the second paragraph in the context of the
first is that it is saying the Clearing system can be used by people to
dump the course they were going to (i.e. their UCAS Firm choice) and go
somewhere else. Nowhere is this stated that UCAS specifically state in their
UCAS handbook that such a change is not permitted.

Later in the article it states:

"But clearing is not just for those whose A-level
results are a disappointment.

Some students turn to it because they have got better
grades than predicted and want to reconsider their options."

This is followed by an account of someone who was accepted for a university
place in clearing having originally intended to study for another year.
However, clearly this is not the same situation as these first two
paragraphs since the person wasn't taking A-levels at all, but Scottish
Highers instead. So while the only example given of someone using Clearing
due to gaining better than expected grades was a legitimate one, the example
doesn't fit in with the rest of the text which is more about people
taking A-levels than people using the separate Scottish system.

Matthew Huntbach
Davido
2004-08-20 14:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
You are? Once you are accepted by your Firm choice, that's it. You can't
just "go into clearing" on a whim because you've changed your mind. I've
already had a couple of students phone me and asked to be released from
their commitments to come to the degree programme I'm admissions tutor for
and I've said "No". All other admissions tutors should do the same as that's
the only way to protect the integrity of the system.
Matthew Huntbach
So you'd rather have students forced to go to a university / do a
course completely against their wishes as opposed to let them do
whatever's the best option for them? Do you really want to tutor
students who don't give a shit for 3 years because "I never wanted to
go here", as opposed to replacing them with clearing students with
perhaps worse grades but a better attitude? What if their mum's ill so
they want to go to their local uni, is that "tough luck"?
adam
2004-08-20 16:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davido
Post by Matthew Huntbach
You are? Once you are accepted by your Firm choice, that's it. You can't
just "go into clearing" on a whim because you've changed your mind. I've
already had a couple of students phone me and asked to be released from
their commitments to come to the degree programme I'm admissions tutor for
and I've said "No". All other admissions tutors should do the same as that's
the only way to protect the integrity of the system.
Matthew Huntbach
So you'd rather have students forced to go to a university / do a
course completely against their wishes as opposed to let them do
whatever's the best option for them? Do you really want to tutor
students who don't give a shit for 3 years because "I never wanted to
go here", as opposed to replacing them with clearing students with
perhaps worse grades but a better attitude? What if their mum's ill so
they want to go to their local uni, is that "tough luck"?
I think his point is more that people should take the whole UCAS thing a
*lot* more seriously, rather than just seeing it as a list of universities
you *may* want to go to.

Being an admissions tutor has gotta be tough under perfect circumstances,
that is, without people acting like Dave did. You've got a whole bunch of
applications, and somehow you have to give out offers with the end result
being that a certain number will make you their firm choice, and a certain
number will make you their insurance, and then after that, when results come
out, you end up with a very tightly controlled number actually coming to
your university.

Make a mistake, and your course will either have too few, or too many people
on it. It's a big responsibility.

Oh, and if their "mum is ill" then that would probably count as exceptional
circumstances. But something like Dave's point number 4 is just stupid.

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-20 16:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
I think his point is more that people should take the whole UCAS thing
a *lot* more seriously, rather than just seeing it as a list of
universities you *may* want to go to.
So what do you propose? Fines for breaking the rules?

Nah. The UCAS system has been "ritualized" so much, it's scary enough
as it is. All those deadlines, all that different terminology, all the
different sorts of offers and conditions, the mountain of correspondence
and official-looking forms that gets thrust through your letterbox from
the moment they receive your application form. It's bad enough without
people wanting even stricter guidelines. I certainly wouldn't want that
"Oh, shit, if I make a wrong choice now then I'm totally fucked come
August!" extra pressure on top of what's already there.
Post by adam
Being an admissions tutor has gotta be tough under perfect
circumstances, that is, without people acting like Dave did. You've
got a whole bunch of applications, and somehow you have to give out
offers with the end result being that a certain number will make you
their firm choice, and a certain number will make you their insurance,
and then after that, when results come out, you end up with a very
tightly controlled number actually coming to your university.
Make a mistake, and your course will either have too few, or too many
people on it. It's a big responsibility.
Isn't that where "Clearing" (that's a scary enough word all by itself,
something akin to "purging"!) comes in and acts as an extra means to
balance out the fact that it's humans we're dealing with and not inanimate
and predictable objects?
Post by adam
Oh, and if their "mum is ill" then that would probably count as
exceptional circumstances. But something like Dave's point number 4
is just stupid.
It's stupid to find that it would be financially impossible to go to
university? Oh, sure, just force him. Tell him to eat only half of
what he normally eats so he can afford the train fares!
--
BdeV
adam
2004-08-20 16:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
I think his point is more that people should take the whole UCAS thing
a *lot* more seriously, rather than just seeing it as a list of
universities you *may* want to go to.
So what do you propose? Fines for breaking the rules?
Nah. The UCAS system has been "ritualized" so much, it's scary enough
as it is. All those deadlines, all that different terminology, all the
different sorts of offers and conditions, the mountain of correspondence
and official-looking forms that gets thrust through your letterbox from
the moment they receive your application form. It's bad enough without
people wanting even stricter guidelines. I certainly wouldn't want that
"Oh, shit, if I make a wrong choice now then I'm totally fucked come
August!" extra pressure on top of what's already there.
I have no idea what a good solution would be, I guess better education at
sixth form level as to the importance of the decision.

On the other hand, I don't know if that is necessary, since nobody I know
has done this kinda thing and changed their mind at the last minute. Only
admissions tutors will know how common that is in the whole scheme of things
and whether it actually is a *big* problem.
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Being an admissions tutor has gotta be tough under perfect
circumstances, that is, without people acting like Dave did. You've
got a whole bunch of applications, and somehow you have to give out
offers with the end result being that a certain number will make you
their firm choice, and a certain number will make you their insurance,
and then after that, when results come out, you end up with a very
tightly controlled number actually coming to your university.
Make a mistake, and your course will either have too few, or too many
people on it. It's a big responsibility.
Isn't that where "Clearing" (that's a scary enough word all by itself,
something akin to "purging"!) comes in and acts as an extra means to
balance out the fact that it's humans we're dealing with and not inanimate
and predictable objects?
Post by adam
Oh, and if their "mum is ill" then that would probably count as
exceptional circumstances. But something like Dave's point number 4
is just stupid.
It's stupid to find that it would be financially impossible to go to
university? Oh, sure, just force him. Tell him to eat only half of
what he normally eats so he can afford the train fares!
It's stupid to put down Liverpool as a choice, and then make it your Firm
choice, when you never intended to go there, for whatever reason.

It'd be like going to a resturant and ordering a big steak, and they ask you
how you would like it, and you say "blue" and grin, and then when it comes,
complain because you are a vegetarian and they have made you feel ill by
showing you raw meat, and demanding a free desert.

Okay, maybe not quite that bad, no free desert, but you get my point, I
hope.

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-20 16:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
It's stupid to put down Liverpool as a choice, and then make it your
Firm choice, when you never intended to go there, for whatever reason.
Do we know that Dave never intended to go to Liverpool at all? If he
maliciously chose Liverpool knowing full well that he had zero intentions
of going there, then that's evil. And he deserves everything that's
been posted here against him.

But there may be facts we don't know. Maybe when he chose Liverpool
as "firm" he had a good job, or had enough money (or thought he had
enough). And then something unforeseen happens. Financial situation
changes totally. What then?
Post by adam
It'd be like going to a resturant and ordering a big steak, and they
ask you how you would like it, and you say "blue" and grin, and then
when it comes, complain because you are a vegetarian and they have
made you feel ill by showing you raw meat, and demanding a free
desert.
Okay, maybe not quite that bad, no free desert, but you get my point,
I hope.
I do, but I don't remembering reading any message from Dave saying that
he chose Liverpool in fit of spite and malice.


Maybe I'm too trusting and believe that everyone's nice deep down...
--
BdeV
Dave
2004-08-20 17:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Right... time to settle this.

Firstly I am not working at the moment, nor have I had a job in my life yet.

I did intend on going to Liverpool. I went to the open day at liverpool to
listen to the talk on the course I had chose. I went on the tour of
accomodation to see what it was like and applied for the course under the
assumption of moving to liverpool.

However, I think in late May/early June I gave up on the idea of going to
university this year and decided that I would defer my entry until 2005 and
take a gap year in which I could get a job and earn ome money. Less than a
week before results day a friend told me that to take a gap year I would
have to get good results... As it was doubtful that I would obtain the
necessary results to take a gap year I thought that I had better be
decisive. Having not touched the student accomodation forms I thought it
would be best if I studied at chester to avoid the high costs of
accomodation or rail travel as I am not working and will have to rely upon
my student loan for university costs. As this has happened within a week I
have also only recently sent off my student loan form with the chester
course entered as what I will be studying. Due to lack of finaces if the
loan doesn't arrive on time I will have to pay from my own pocket... this
would be much more difficult and expensive to do if I was attending
liverpool univerity. I recognise that there was an agreement but
circumstances have changed since that agreement was made

Thankyou for the support in this matter Robert

Dave
Ian/Cath Ford
2004-08-20 19:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Hey Dave, maybe you need to rethink that gap year thing. If Chester
are happy to take you this year I'd be pretty sure that they'd be
happy to do so next year. You'd be a place they can be sure of, one
they don;t have to gamble with on A Level grades. You're a known
quantity and the AT hits a target with you.

Why would you only need good grades to do a gap year? Heck, away and
work for a while, go live someplace else for a few weeks, earn some
money.

All of what you've written sounds like you're really unsure about
things. The only way to get a bit surer must be to think about it,
talk to people you know who ahve gone off this year and maybe go visit
them. No point making quick decisions that you still might end up
regretting.

Ian
--
Ian, Cath, Eoin & Calum Ford
The view from Beccles

I loved the words you wrote to me/But that was bloody yesterday

No e-mail address. If you want to talk to me then talk here to start with and we can go back to your place later...
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 09:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
I did intend on going to Liverpool. I went to the open day at liverpool to
listen to the talk on the course I had chose. I went on the tour of
accomodation to see what it was like and applied for the course under the
assumption of moving to liverpool.
However, I think in late May/early June I gave up on the idea of going to
university this year and decided that I would defer my entry until 2005 and
take a gap year in which I could get a job and earn ome money. Less than a
week before results day a friend told me that to take a gap year I would
have to get good results... As it was doubtful that I would obtain the
necessary results to take a gap year I thought that I had better be
decisive. Having not touched the student accomodation forms I thought it
would be best if I studied at chester to avoid the high costs of
accomodation or rail travel as I am not working and will have to rely upon
my student loan for university costs. As this has happened within a week I
have also only recently sent off my student loan form with the chester
course entered as what I will be studying. Due to lack of finaces if the
loan doesn't arrive on time I will have to pay from my own pocket... this
would be much more difficult and expensive to do if I was attending
liverpool univerity. I recognise that there was an agreement but
circumstances have changed since that agreement was made
The story as you have told it was that you had Liverpool as your Firm
UCAS chocie and Chester as your Insurance. It was only after you
received your A-level results that you asked them to release you.
Happily for you, you were released, so all this dicussion is a
theoretical one.

If in May/June you had decided not to go after all, then you ought to
have informed Liverpool and Chester at that point. As I have said,
leaving it to the last minute when they have already allocated places
causes administrative difficulties and in particular means they will
have rejected someone else in order to give you the place they assumed
you had agreed to take.

I am not quite sure what you mean by needing to have good grades to
take a gap year. Taking a gap year just means you take a year out. You
don't need any sort of grades to take a year out. If you meant you
wished to keep open your offer but take it up for entry in 2005, that
is permissible under the UCAS system, and again all you needed to do
was ask Liverpool and Chester when you made that decision, and not
wait several months until the A-level results came in.

Matthew Huntbach
Stuart Williams
2004-08-20 18:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
I think his point is more that people should take the whole UCAS thing
a *lot* more seriously, rather than just seeing it as a list of
universities you *may* want to go to.
So what do you propose? Fines for breaking the rules?
Nah. The UCAS system has been "ritualized" so much, it's scary enough
as it is. All those deadlines, all that different terminology, all the
different sorts of offers and conditions, the mountain of correspondence
and official-looking forms that gets thrust through your letterbox from
the moment they receive your application form. It's bad enough without
people wanting even stricter guidelines. I certainly wouldn't want that
"Oh, shit, if I make a wrong choice now then I'm totally fucked come
August!" extra pressure on top of what's already there.
So at what point in your life /do/ you learn that your choices have
significant consequences (=grow up)? When /you/decide you're ready? I
can't help agreeing with MMH: although no university would want to take
on a reluctant student, there is a kind of moral hazard here: why
shouldn't sixth formers make their choices carefully, and live with the
consequences even if they don't suit? If we simply absolve applicants of
any unpleasantness, UCAS choices will continue to be made thoughtlessly,
and admissions tutors will be stuffed. (Another argument for post-results
applications, of course.)
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Make a mistake, and your course will either have too few, or too many
people on it. It's a big responsibility.
Isn't that where "Clearing" (that's a scary enough word all by itself,
something akin to "purging"!) comes in and acts as an extra means to
balance out the fact that it's humans we're dealing with and not inanimate
and predictable objects?
Post by adam
Oh, and if their "mum is ill" then that would probably count as
exceptional circumstances. But something like Dave's point number 4
is just stupid.
It's stupid to find that it would be financially impossible to go to
university?
Don't be silly: he could have worked that out before he applied. His
reasons for changing his mind seem totally bogus to me. ".....a friend
told me that to take a gap year I would have to get good results..." and
since he wasn't expecting good results he decided he needed a cheap 2004
option instead of an expensive 2005 option. Is this friend right? Has the
applicant contacted Liverpool to ask? It all seems so shallow. It's not
as though Liverpool is a duff university (whereas Chester - frankly -
is).

SW
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-20 21:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Robert de Vincy says...
Post by Robert de Vincy
Nah. The UCAS system has been "ritualized" so much, it's scary
enough as it is. All those deadlines, all that different
terminology, all the different sorts of offers and conditions, the
mountain of correspondence and official-looking forms that gets
thrust through your letterbox from the moment they receive your
application form. It's bad enough without people wanting even
stricter guidelines. I certainly wouldn't want that "Oh, shit, if I
make a wrong choice now then I'm totally fucked come August!" extra
pressure on top of what's already there.
So at what point in your life /do/ you learn that your choices have
significant consequences (=grow up)? When /you/decide you're ready?
It certainly shouldn't be at 18 directly gleaned the experience of picking
the wrong course and then being *forced* to take it, as Huntbach seems to
be hinting he wishes were the case.

The thought that you could be stuck for at least a year in a place you
don't want to be at, wasting not only 12 months of your own life but taking
a place that could have been offered to someone who would have wanted to
be there... and the "adults" are sitting back laughing at this because
they think it's some sort of learning process that will be good for you?
Far from being good, it's a sure way to brew a seething resentment.
I can't help agreeing with MMH: although no university would want to
take on a reluctant student, there is a kind of moral hazard here: why
shouldn't sixth formers make their choices carefully, and live with
the consequences even if they don't suit? If we simply absolve
applicants of any unpleasantness, UCAS choices will continue to be
made thoughtlessly, and admissions tutors will be stuffed. (Another
argument for post-results applications, of course.)
There should be guidance and support *before* that point-of-no-return.
It's a very callous and expensive method if every student's choice is
legally enforced except under very exceptional conditions. Something
like saying the only way to teach a young kid that fire is dangerous is
to hold its hand in a flame till it's lost a finger or two. "Ha! See?
Valuable lesson: beware of fire." I'm glad you're not my parent!
Post by Robert de Vincy
It's stupid to find that it would be financially impossible to go to
university?
Don't be silly: he could have worked that out before he applied. His
reasons for changing his mind seem totally bogus to me. ".....a
friend told me that to take a gap year I would have to get good
results..." and since he wasn't expecting good results he decided he
needed a cheap 2004 option instead of an expensive 2005 option. Is
this friend right? Has the applicant contacted Liverpool to ask? It
all seems so shallow.
Okay, I agree that this reason is not as compelling as "I lost my job"
or many other unforeseeable financial-situation-affecting reasons.

I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to understand,
it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10 years' extra experience
of what the grown-up world can be like. To fresh-faced school-leavers,
it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
It's not as though Liverpool is a duff university (whereas Chester -
frankly - is).
I couldn't possibly comment about basing a decision purely on a university's
perceived reputation.
--
BdeV
Stuart Williams
2004-08-21 09:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Robert de Vincy says...
Post by Robert de Vincy
Nah. The UCAS system has been "ritualized" so much, it's scary
enough as it is. All those deadlines, all that different
terminology, all the different sorts of offers and conditions, the
mountain of correspondence and official-looking forms that gets
thrust through your letterbox from the moment they receive your
application form. It's bad enough without people wanting even
stricter guidelines. I certainly wouldn't want that "Oh, shit, if I
make a wrong choice now then I'm totally fucked come August!" extra
pressure on top of what's already there.
So at what point in your life /do/ you learn that your choices have
significant consequences (=grow up)? When /you/decide you're ready?
It certainly shouldn't be at 18 directly gleaned the experience of picking
the wrong course and then being *forced* to take it, as Huntbach seems to
be hinting he wishes were the case.
The thought that you could be stuck for at least a year in a place you
don't want to be at, wasting not only 12 months of your own life but taking
a place that could have been offered to someone who would have wanted to
be there... and the "adults" are sitting back laughing
(Not laughing, of course, but possibly muttering "should have talked it
over with us first".)
Post by Robert de Vincy
at this because
they think it's some sort of learning process that will be good for you?
Far from being good, it's a sure way to brew a seething resentment.
I can't help agreeing with MMH: although no university would want to
take on a reluctant student, there is a kind of moral hazard here: why
shouldn't sixth formers make their choices carefully, and live with
the consequences even if they don't suit? If we simply absolve
applicants of any unpleasantness, UCAS choices will continue to be
made thoughtlessly, and admissions tutors will be stuffed. (Another
argument for post-results applications, of course.)
There should be guidance and support *before* that point-of-no-return.
It's a very callous and expensive method if every student's choice is
legally enforced except under very exceptional conditions. Something
like saying the only way to teach a young kid that fire is dangerous is
to hold its hand in a flame till it's lost a finger or two. "Ha! See?
Valuable lesson: beware of fire." I'm glad you're not my parent!
Funnily enough my mother did hold my hand to the kitchen range for a
couple of seconds when I was tall enough to reach the hotplate, though
fortunately she stopped short of maiming me. Was that bad parenting?

But anyway, you're caricaturing my position: and I ask again, at what
point should young people discover that some decisions can't be shrugged
off just because they don't like the consequences?
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by Robert de Vincy
It's stupid to find that it would be financially impossible to go to
university?
Don't be silly: he could have worked that out before he applied. His
reasons for changing his mind seem totally bogus to me. ".....a
friend told me that to take a gap year I would have to get good
results..." and since he wasn't expecting good results he decided he
needed a cheap 2004 option instead of an expensive 2005 option. Is
this friend right? Has the applicant contacted Liverpool to ask? It
all seems so shallow.
Okay, I agree that this reason is not as compelling as "I lost my job"
or many other unforeseeable financial-situation-affecting reasons.
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to understand,
it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10 years' extra experience
of what the grown-up world can be like. To fresh-faced school-leavers,
it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
But as you imply, this /is/ Life As We Know It. Try making a will, or
applying for a passport (so complex that the Post Office will check your
application for you for a fair-sized fee), filling in a tax return, or
getting a visa to visit certain countries, etc, etc. Quite right, these
things are all daunting but, if they're not going to be simplified for
you, you've got to start grappling with them sometime.
Post by Robert de Vincy
It's not as though Liverpool is a duff university (whereas Chester -
frankly - is).
I couldn't possibly comment about basing a decision purely on a university's
perceived reputation.
I don't quite follow. My suspicion is that this guy hasn't considered
this aspect of his decision either.

SW
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 12:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Stuart Williams did write:

[...]
Post by Stuart Williams
Funnily enough my mother did hold my hand to the kitchen range for a
couple of seconds when I was tall enough to reach the hotplate, though
fortunately she stopped short of maiming me. Was that bad parenting?
How long did the pain last?
Did the experience produce a resentment in you towards your mother?
Was there any lasting damage?

Telling a person bluntly "No, you can't go to that university because
The Rules say you can't. You either drop out and try again in a year's
time or you attend this other university that you no longer want" purely
as a means of teaching them a lesson has more negative outcomes than
positive ones.
* That person may give up entirely, being faced with such an inhuman and
inflexible system. (And please don't give me the "Oh, if he feels like
that then he's not suited to university!" line. Anyone who wanted to do
something and is presented with so many -- to his perspective -- pointless
and unnecessary obstacles to achieving that something would have to be
an absolute saint not to have a "Well, fuck it then, you can keep your
stupid UCAS rules!" reaction of some sort.) In other words, your ability
to go to university is not measured by academic means, but by how well
you can bite your tongue and accept meaningless rules. ("Meaningless"
to a student's perspective, that is -- applicants can't be expected to
empathise with admissions tutors and see the wonderful brilliance of such
rules.)
* That person -- because he is eager to go to university -- may go to
the only one that's being offered and hate it. His learning may well
be affected, he may affect the studying of others around him. Then,
if the reason for his change-of-mind is financial, there's the problem
of actually providing the essentials of food and shelter for himself.
* He could drop out this year and re-apply again next year. That's 12
months. 12 months of putting off what he is ready and willing to do
now, if just one condition were right (i.e. being allowed to go to a
unversity that fits in with his current situation).

Oh, yes. A great learning experience. It would instil in you the kind
of things that would make your journey through life so light and breezy
and enjoyable.
Post by Stuart Williams
But anyway, you're caricaturing my position: and I ask again, at what
point should young people discover that some decisions can't be
shrugged off just because they don't like the consequences?
As early as possible.

But this particular method of discovery is more harmful than beneficial
to the person supposedly doing the learning.
I'm not disagreeing that Consequences Of Actions shouldn't be learned.
I disgree about the way that it's being taught in this situation.
Post by Stuart Williams
But as you imply, this /is/ Life As We Know It. Try making a will, or
applying for a passport (so complex that the Post Office will check
your application for you for a fair-sized fee), filling in a tax
return, or getting a visa to visit certain countries, etc, etc. Quite
right, these things are all daunting but, if they're not going to be
simplified for you, you've got to start grappling with them sometime.
They're daunting, but there's nothing inherent in them that says they
*must* be daunting. I believe if we can reduce the level of daunt(?)
in something then we should. Haven't you noticed how passport application
(and other government) forms have become easier to understand with
regard to wording and design and layout? Yes, they're still complex,
but in comparison to a generation ago, they're simpler. And yet, the
newer, Plain English versions still do the same job as the older ones
with their strange and antiquated phrasing.
So, maybe we can't mess around with the UCAS system too much (to make
it more understandable and, therefore, less prone to error), but we can
reduce some of the pressures that are linked to it and that add to the
general "daunt" of it all.
Post by Stuart Williams
I don't quite follow. My suspicion is that this guy hasn't considered
this aspect of his decision [university reputation] either.
Or maybe he has, and that's why he originally put "Liverpool" as his
firm choice. Then, when acting on later information (bad information,
okay, but from his perspective he doesn't know this, so it's "good"
information at the time that it can influence his decisions) he realizes
that it would be unwise to go to the place he really wanted and now tries
to go for somewhere that can accommodate his situation.
--
BdeV
adam
2004-08-22 13:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
[...]
Post by Stuart Williams
Funnily enough my mother did hold my hand to the kitchen range for a
couple of seconds when I was tall enough to reach the hotplate, though
fortunately she stopped short of maiming me. Was that bad parenting?
How long did the pain last?
Did the experience produce a resentment in you towards your mother?
Was there any lasting damage?
Telling a person bluntly "No, you can't go to that university because
The Rules say you can't. You either drop out and try again in a year's
time or you attend this other university that you no longer want" purely
as a means of teaching them a lesson has more negative outcomes than
positive ones.
* That person may give up entirely, being faced with such an inhuman and
inflexible system. (And please don't give me the "Oh, if he feels like
that then he's not suited to university!" line. Anyone who wanted to do
something and is presented with so many -- to his perspective -- pointless
and unnecessary obstacles to achieving that something would have to be
an absolute saint not to have a "Well, fuck it then, you can keep your
stupid UCAS rules!" reaction of some sort.) In other words, your ability
to go to university is not measured by academic means, but by how well
you can bite your tongue and accept meaningless rules. ("Meaningless"
to a student's perspective, that is -- applicants can't be expected to
empathise with admissions tutors and see the wonderful brilliance of such
rules.)
Why can't they be expected to empathise with admissions tutors and the way
the *whole* system works, rather than just expecting everything to fit in
with *their* way of doing things.

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 13:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
* That person may give up entirely, being faced with such an inhuman
and inflexible system. (And please don't give me the "Oh, if he
feels like that then he's not suited to university!" line. Anyone
who wanted to do something and is presented with so many -- to his
perspective -- pointless and unnecessary obstacles to achieving that
something would have to be an absolute saint not to have a "Well,
fuck it then, you can keep your stupid UCAS rules!" reaction of some
sort.) In other words, your ability to go to university is not
measured by academic means, but by how well you can bite your tongue
and accept meaningless rules. ("Meaningless" to a student's
perspective, that is -- applicants can't be expected to empathise with
admissions tutors and see the wonderful brilliance of such rules.)
Why can't they be expected to empathise with admissions tutors and the
way the *whole* system works, rather than just expecting everything to
fit in with *their* way of doing things.
I don't know why they don't, but that's the way things are.

It's no good suggesting how things ought to be and then designing the
system around the Ideal World version. It has to work with how people
really behave. In an Ideal World, sure, candidates would take into
consideration the job of the ATs, and realize why certain things were
the way they were. But this is far from the Ideal World so we're stuck
with real people and real behaviour.
--
BdeV
adam
2004-08-22 14:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
* That person may give up entirely, being faced with such an inhuman
and inflexible system. (And please don't give me the "Oh, if he
feels like that then he's not suited to university!" line. Anyone
who wanted to do something and is presented with so many -- to his
perspective -- pointless and unnecessary obstacles to achieving that
something would have to be an absolute saint not to have a "Well,
fuck it then, you can keep your stupid UCAS rules!" reaction of some
sort.) In other words, your ability to go to university is not
measured by academic means, but by how well you can bite your tongue
and accept meaningless rules. ("Meaningless" to a student's
perspective, that is -- applicants can't be expected to empathise with
admissions tutors and see the wonderful brilliance of such rules.)
Why can't they be expected to empathise with admissions tutors and the
way the *whole* system works, rather than just expecting everything to
fit in with *their* way of doing things.
I don't know why they don't, but that's the way things are.
It's no good suggesting how things ought to be and then designing the
system around the Ideal World version. It has to work with how people
really behave. In an Ideal World, sure, candidates would take into
consideration the job of the ATs, and realize why certain things were
the way they were. But this is far from the Ideal World so we're stuck
with real people and real behaviour.
So you are saying the whole system should be designed from the point of view
of the applicant?

That places *extreme* pressure on the AT and universities.

There has to be some kind of compromise, this is done by taking the overall
"Real World" view, and trying to explain to people why certain decisions
were made.


This reminds me of computers :)

On the one hand, you have programmers, who want to be able to write software
the way stuff works in their head, and they want it to execute as fast as
possible on some abstract peice of hardware.

On the other hand, you have the processor designers, who need to design a
processor which will execute programmer's code as fast as possible.

Problem is, there is a limit to the speed of the processor. It can be made
faster however, by subtley changing the code, rearranging certain lines and
so on. In current desktop proessors, this is done on the fly inside the
hardware.

However, it can be made *even faster* by giving the responsibility for
rearranging code to make it fast, to the programmer/compiler. Then,
processor technology can be much simpler and hence much faster.

But then you have to ask, "does the programmer want to have to think about
hardware issues, things he doesn't care about, when trying to write fast
efficient software?"

The answer is, "no, but he *has* to anyway".


So no, the applicant probably shouldn't have to worry about ATs and their
problems, and in an Ideal World she wouldn't, but in the real world, she
must, hence the forms.

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 15:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
So you are saying the whole system should be designed from the point
of view of the applicant?
No. I'm saying there should be flexibility built into the system, in
opposition to the views I've seen so far that support the rigid "formal
legal agreement" idea.

Once again, I'm basing my objections on the quite daunting system that
applying to university is. Is it not enough that there are pressures
weighing down on 18-year-olds from every possible angle (parents, friends,
teachers, job prospects, exam anxieties, uni reputations, etc, etc) without
adding to that pile of stress by insisting that once they write "F" against
a name on a form then they are committed to that decision for at least 12
months? It doesn't give them a valuable learning opportunity -- as Stuart
Williams suggests. By then, it's too late and they will end up paying
a penalty that such a lesson ought to have prevented in the first place.
The only reason it is there (or, at least, the idea that it ought to be more
binding) is to make the AT's job a little easier. It has no direct benefit
to the applicant. The effect it does have on an applicant is to produce
the disgruntled youngster who sees the system as an obstacle and not a
means to getting on in life. That, to me, is a large cross against this
part of the system.

As for the ATs, well, I don't see them as almighty beings whose every
whim should be pandered to. They're demanding a feature that improves
their side of interacting in the system, with considerably less benefit
to the other side. To me, that's unreasonable in the spirit of creating
a compromise. They're just people doing a job, after all. If they
can't cope without that feature then surely we can apply the "Can't do
UCAS? Can't do uni" style of thinking to them, sack the whole bloody lot
of them, and get someone who CAN do the job. I assume they weren't
appointed by Divine Ordinance.
Post by adam
That places *extreme* pressure on the AT and universities.
There has to be some kind of compromise, this is done by taking the
overall "Real World" view, and trying to explain to people why certain
decisions were made.
But when the decisions that were made are based on "No, I'm not letting
you go elsewhere. I'm being a stubborn ass because I *can* be a stubborn
ass"... ?

Anyway, my reply is probably open to huge misinterpretation, so for the
sake of those unable to grasp what I'm saying (I'm not addressing this to
you, adam):
* Yes, I think that 18-year-olds should take responsibility for their
actions.
* Yes, I think that anyone selecting a university in the UCAS system as
their "Firm" choice should commit themselves as much as reasonably
possible to enrolling at that university, given no further change of
circumstances.
* No, I don't think we should make such a decision a "formal legal
agreement".
Post by adam
This reminds me of computers :)
On the one hand, you have programmers, who want to be able to write
software the way stuff works in their head, and they want it to
execute as fast as possible on some abstract peice of hardware.
On the other hand, you have the processor designers, who need to
design a processor which will execute programmer's code as fast as
possible.
Problem is, there is a limit to the speed of the processor. It can be
made faster however, by subtley changing the code, rearranging certain
lines and so on. In current desktop proessors, this is done on the
fly inside the hardware.
However, it can be made *even faster* by giving the responsibility for
rearranging code to make it fast, to the programmer/compiler. Then,
processor technology can be much simpler and hence much faster.
But then you have to ask, "does the programmer want to have to think
about hardware issues, things he doesn't care about, when trying to
write fast efficient software?"
The answer is, "no, but he *has* to anyway".
So no, the applicant probably shouldn't have to worry about ATs and
their problems, and in an Ideal World she wouldn't, but in the real
world, she must, hence the forms.
I don't think the forms are the problem. They contribute to the problem,
but they're not a variable that we can realistically reduce to zero.
The problem is that the forms create heaps of pressure only in combination
with other things associated with the process. So, if the forms are
constants, what else can we reduce to ease the pressure? (This is all
assuming that to reduce the pressure in a system is a good thing, of
course. For anyone with a sadistic "Teach the little fuckers a lesson the
hard way" attitude, then my whole viewpoint make much sense.)
--
BdeV
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 15:27:15 UTC
Permalink
(This is all assuming that to reduce the pressure in a system is a
good thing, of course. For anyone with a sadistic "Teach the little
fuckers a lesson the hard way" attitude, then my whole viewpoint make
much sense.)
Change "make much" to "makes no".
--
BdeV
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 10:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Once again, I'm basing my objections on the quite daunting system that
applying to university is. Is it not enough that there are pressures
weighing down on 18-year-olds from every possible angle (parents, friends,
teachers, job prospects, exam anxieties, uni reputations, etc, etc) without
adding to that pile of stress by insisting that once they write "F" against
a name on a form then they are committed to that decision for at least 12
months?
A commitment has to be made at some point. As I have argued, the system
would be a whole lot more chaotic if the commitment did not exist until near
the start of term.
Post by Robert de Vincy
It doesn't give them a valuable learning opportunity -- as Stuart
Williams suggests. By then, it's too late and they will end up paying
a penalty that such a lesson ought to have prevented in the first place.
The only reason it is there (or, at least, the idea that it ought to be more
binding) is to make the AT's job a little easier. It has no direct benefit
to the applicant. The effect it does have on an applicant is to produce
the disgruntled youngster who sees the system as an obstacle and not a
means to getting on in life. That, to me, is a large cross against this
part of the system.
No, the system is not there just "to make the AT's job a little easier". It
is there to make life easier for all involved, universities and students,
since it enables universities t plan in advance with a reaonsbale estimate
of the number of students they will have for each subject.
Post by Robert de Vincy
As for the ATs, well, I don't see them as almighty beings whose every
whim should be pandered to. They're demanding a feature that improves
their side of interacting in the system, with considerably less benefit
to the other side. To me, that's unreasonable in the spirit of creating
a compromise. They're just people doing a job, after all. If they
can't cope without that feature then surely we can apply the "Can't do
UCAS? Can't do uni" style of thinking to them, sack the whole bloody lot
of them, and get someone who CAN do the job. I assume they weren't
appointed by Divine Ordinance.
In effect you are demanding a system where a university does not know how
many students will turn up for a particular degree at the start of term -
20, 50, 100, 200? You can't just hire or fire teaching staff, build or
demolish laboratories, as required, at a week's notice.

Matthew Huntbach
Stuart Williams
2004-08-22 16:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
* That person may give up entirely, being faced with such an inhuman
and inflexible system. (And please don't give me the "Oh, if he
feels like that then he's not suited to university!" line. Anyone
who wanted to do something and is presented with so many -- to his
perspective -- pointless and unnecessary obstacles to achieving that
something would have to be an absolute saint not to have a "Well,
fuck it then, you can keep your stupid UCAS rules!" reaction of some
sort.) In other words, your ability to go to university is not
measured by academic means, but by how well you can bite your tongue
and accept meaningless rules. ("Meaningless" to a student's
perspective, that is -- applicants can't be expected to empathise with
admissions tutors and see the wonderful brilliance of such rules.)
Why can't they be expected to empathise with admissions tutors and the
way the *whole* system works, rather than just expecting everything to
fit in with *their* way of doing things.
I don't know why they don't, but that's the way things are.
It's no good suggesting how things ought to be and then designing the
system around the Ideal World version. It has to work with how people
really behave. In an Ideal World, sure, candidates would take into
consideration the job of the ATs, and realize why certain things were
the way they were. But this is far from the Ideal World so we're stuck
with real people and real behaviour.
But that behaviour can be changed: if (for example) it became standard
practice that universities would not release you (IF, note - I'm not
necessarily advocating that they should), then students would surely
become very much more careful about their choices. Those that got caught
out would (one hopes) become fewer and fewer. There would be some
injustices - some people would have to pull out and postpone uni for 12
months.

So I don't agree that you simply have to put up with whatever the current
average behavioural traits of 18-year-olds happen to be, and work round
them.

SW
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 11:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Williams
Post by Robert de Vincy
It's no good suggesting how things ought to be and then designing the
system around the Ideal World version. It has to work with how people
really behave. In an Ideal World, sure, candidates would take into
consideration the job of the ATs, and realize why certain things were
the way they were. But this is far from the Ideal World so we're stuck
with real people and real behaviour.
But that behaviour can be changed: if (for example) it became standard
practice that universities would not release you (IF, note - I'm not
necessarily advocating that they should), then students would surely
become very much more careful about their choices. Those that got caught
out would (one hopes) become fewer and fewer. There would be some
injustices - some people would have to pull out and postpone uni for 12
months.
Yes, that is all I am asking for. In the UCAS handbook it makes it quite
clear that releases from commitment are only to be granted under
exceptional circumstances. There are good practical reasons for this. I
think students should understand this, and make their UCAS Firm and
Insurance choices carefully. They should not assume it is something they can
get out of at the last moment just by asking for it, no reason given.
Journalists writing "Clearing" supplements in newspapers should not give the
impression "you can use clearing to get somewhere 'better' if you get higher
than expected grades". Universities have to get together and be reasonably
firm on this rather thjan just instantly giving in to requests for release,
since if they do always give in, students will relaise that UCAS commitments
mean nothing and the system will break down to one where universities really
don't know how many students they have until term starts.

Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-25 14:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Stuart Williams
But that behaviour can be changed: if (for example) it became standard
practice that universities would not release you (IF, note - I'm not
necessarily advocating that they should), then students would surely
become very much more careful about their choices. Those that got caught
out would (one hopes) become fewer and fewer. There would be some
injustices - some people would have to pull out and postpone uni for 12
months.
Yes, that is all I am asking for. In the UCAS handbook it makes it quite
clear that releases from commitment are only to be granted under
exceptional circumstances. There are good practical reasons for this. I
think students should understand this, and make their UCAS Firm and
Insurance choices carefully. They should not assume it is something they can
get out of at the last moment just by asking for it, no reason given.
On this subject, I have just had my SIXTH request for a release from UCAS
commitments. Not one of those requests gave reasons which are acceptable
according to the UCAS Admissions Guide. Three of them gave no reasons at
all, just "I want to be released", and the others were "I want to go
somewhere neare to where I live" (which in both cases meant in practice
about 15 minutes difference in travelling time). Two of these have already had
to be released due to the students becoming threatening and abusive when
they were originally told they could not be released under UCAS rules, and I
fully expect the rest to go the same way.

The loss of six students, for whom places had been reserved and other
applicants rejected, is a significant factor for my department. It will not
be possible to replace those students in Clearing since all the best
students who were going through Clearing have now been snapped up. In effect
ot probably will mean the loss of one job (not through someone being sacked,
but through any vacancy that arises not being replaced).

Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 10:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Telling a person bluntly "No, you can't go to that university because
The Rules say you can't. You either drop out and try again in a year's
time or you attend this other university that you no longer want" purely
as a means of teaching them a lesson has more negative outcomes than
positive ones.
No, it's not just "because The Rules say" as if the rules are there just to
be sadistic. The rules are there so that both students and universities know
where they stand and can plan in advance - students know the university has
a place open for them and they won't be told at the start of term "sorry, we
messed up" or "sorry, we found some better students than you" and be denied
the place they had assumed was theirs, universities will have a reasonable
idea how many students will turn up at the start of term and can allocate
places to applicants on the understanding those applicants will turn up at
the start of term.
Post by Robert de Vincy
* That person may give up entirely, being faced with such an inhuman and
inflexible system. (And please don't give me the "Oh, if he feels like
that then he's not suited to university!" line.
So what would you prefer? A situation which involves no commitments so
no-one knows what will be happening until term starts - students turn up at
universities and are turned away either because the degree turned out to
attract too many students so they can't all be accommodated, or too few
students so the course couldn't be run?
Post by Robert de Vincy
So, maybe we can't mess around with the UCAS system too much (to make
it more understandable and, therefore, less prone to error), but we can
reduce some of the pressures that are linked to it and that add to the
general "daunt" of it all.
What is difficult about the concept "You choose a 1st and a 2nd choice, and
you are committed to going to them if they confirm your place"?
Post by Robert de Vincy
Or maybe he has, and that's why he originally put "Liverpool" as his
firm choice. Then, when acting on later information (bad information,
okay, but from his perspective he doesn't know this, so it's "good"
information at the time that it can influence his decisions) he realizes
that it would be unwise to go to the place he really wanted and now tries
to go for somewhere that can accommodate his situation.
If personal circumstances have arisen since the commitment was made then the
person can be released from that commitment. My concern is that if it is
assumed that release is automatic rather than something that would only be
permitted under exceptional circumstances, then we no longer have a stable
system and we do have the situation I described above.

Matthew Huntbach
jess
2004-08-21 15:31:24 UTC
Permalink
[...] the experience of
picking the wrong course and then being *forced* to take it, as
Huntbach seems to be hinting he wishes were the case.
no one is wishing for that. what should be the case is that the uni refuses
to release him from the agreement,so if he doesn't want to go there, he'll
have to withdraw from ucas completely for this year, and then reapply (btw,i
can't see why he can't do this anyway if he wants a gap year). i think if
*every* uni who had someone ask to be released did this, it would stop so
many people doing it.
jess
2004-08-21 15:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to
understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like. To
fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.

if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 12:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to
understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like. To
fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.
if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Oh, great. So the filter on university application is not based on your
academic credentials and ability to study the subject, but on how well
you can cope with inflexible bureaucracy?
--
BdeV
adam
2004-08-22 13:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to
understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like. To
fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.
if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Oh, great. So the filter on university application is not based on your
academic credentials and ability to study the subject, but on how well
you can cope with inflexible bureaucracy?
I think her point is more, "yes, it's hard, but it's not impossible for
anyone, and there is help available, but if you just can't be bothered, then
it doesn't show much commitment, and university requires commitment".

It's like applying for a job, there are forms to fill in, especially on
those graduate schemes, they are long and complicated, and if you can't be
arsed trawling through it, then you probably didn't want the job very badly
in the first place.

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 14:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I
was applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with,
forms to fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes
to understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like.
To fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone
crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.
if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Oh, great. So the filter on university application is not based on
your academic credentials and ability to study the subject, but on
how well you can cope with inflexible bureaucracy?
I think her point is more, "yes, it's hard, but it's not impossible
for anyone, and there is help available, but if you just can't be
bothered, then it doesn't show much commitment, and university
requires commitment".
Which is exactly my point. The first filter to engagement in the
university system is the filling in of the form. Nothing else matters;
if you can't pass this point, you fall at the first hurdle.
Post by adam
It's like applying for a job, there are forms to fill in, especially
on those graduate schemes, they are long and complicated, and if you
can't be arsed trawling through it, then you probably didn't want the
job very badly in the first place.
Once again, the first filter is the ability to navigate long and complex
forms. This might have bugger-all to do with the actual job you're
going to be doing, but it acts as the first barrier to entry. If you
can't pass it, you don't get the job. And that's before they even start
looking at your skills and abilities applicable directly to the job.

This might sound good (weeding out the 'weaker' people), but it won't
always automatically select the best people for the job. The job might
not have much to do with filling in forms and following rules blindly.
But if you can't show that skill, you're selected against and you're out
the door.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to edge into something I'm not intending to
say. My original reaction was to Jess's "Can't do UCAS? Can't do uni"
reply.
--
BdeV
adam
2004-08-22 14:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I
was applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with,
forms to fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes
to understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like.
To fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone
crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.
if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Oh, great. So the filter on university application is not based on
your academic credentials and ability to study the subject, but on
how well you can cope with inflexible bureaucracy?
I think her point is more, "yes, it's hard, but it's not impossible
for anyone, and there is help available, but if you just can't be
bothered, then it doesn't show much commitment, and university
requires commitment".
Which is exactly my point. The first filter to engagement in the
university system is the filling in of the form. Nothing else matters;
if you can't pass this point, you fall at the first hurdle.
Post by adam
It's like applying for a job, there are forms to fill in, especially
on those graduate schemes, they are long and complicated, and if you
can't be arsed trawling through it, then you probably didn't want the
job very badly in the first place.
Once again, the first filter is the ability to navigate long and complex
forms. This might have bugger-all to do with the actual job you're
going to be doing, but it acts as the first barrier to entry. If you
can't pass it, you don't get the job. And that's before they even start
looking at your skills and abilities applicable directly to the job.
This might sound good (weeding out the 'weaker' people), but it won't
always automatically select the best people for the job. The job might
not have much to do with filling in forms and following rules blindly.
But if you can't show that skill, you're selected against and you're out
the door.
Anyway, I think I'm starting to edge into something I'm not intending to
say. My original reaction was to Jess's "Can't do UCAS? Can't do uni"
reply.
Right, but what I'm saying is forms are annoying, but they are a fact of
life.

They aren't impossible, for anyone, it's like walking through jelly, it's
annoying, and it weeds out the people who can't be bothered.

It doesn't weed out anyone based on "oh, forms are too hard" because nobody,
no matter how stupid, can't fill in a form. Just takes perseverence and
reading the question several times slowly.

adam
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-22 14:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
Right, but what I'm saying is forms are annoying, but they are a fact
of life.
Reluctantly agreed.

[I have horrific experience of forms almost every working day -- try
filling in one of those National Lottery Charity Board (or whatever
its current re-name is today) grant monitoring forms. If UCAS forms
were anything like the ones I've had to complete in the past, I think
we'd see a very significant drop in uni applicants.]
Post by adam
They aren't impossible, for anyone, it's like walking through jelly,
it's annoying,
Yeah, annoying... but tasty!
Post by adam
and it weeds out the people who can't be bothered.
It doesn't weed out anyone based on "oh, forms are too hard" because
nobody, no matter how stupid, can't fill in a form. Just takes
perseverence and reading the question several times slowly.
Okay, so the forms stay.

But what about the other pressures of applying to university through
this system?

But before you answer that, do you consider application through UCAS to
be as easy as a walk in a park on a warm summer evening with a light
breeze behind you? I don't. I think there is unnecessary pressure there,
and Certain People in this thread are advocating that we need to up
this pressure in order to... whatever. Teach a lesson? Make the jobs
of a few thousand people easier (compared to easing the stress on
100.000s of people)? Making the format of the system a selective procedure
in itself?
--
BdeV
Ian/Cath Ford
2004-08-22 20:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
But before you answer that, do you consider application through UCAS to
be as easy as a walk in a park on a warm summer evening with a light
breeze behind you? I don't.
Well, it was a long time ago and there were two systems inthose days,
so I had UCCA and PCAS to sort, plus an application to a HE College as
well,which was all separate in those days. Then accomodation, then
bank accounts, then houisng benefit and income support, then GTTR and
so on. I managed to do all these all by myself (at 17-20) without any
significant help other than "read the book that comes with it". How
hard is it? I'm not exactly a form filling wizard or a great paper
work mole (in fact, I pretty much hate them), but given the amount of
help and assiatnce that isee given out by people all the time
nowadays, heck, it's not exactly hard is it?

Now, child tax credit - that's near as damned impossible to fill out
and they expect everyone with a child to be able to do that. Tax
returns are *easier* to do. But a 16 year old could very well be
asked to fill that in. Get used to filling informs and understanding
the consequence sof filling them in. Theyget harder and the
consequences get more important.
Post by Robert de Vincy
I think there is unnecessary pressure there,
and Certain People in this thread are advocating that we need to up
this pressure in order to... whatever. Teach a lesson? Make the jobs
of a few thousand people easier (compared to easing the stress on
100.000s of people)? Making the format of the system a selective procedure
in itself?
Well, imagine you're an AT. Lots of people screw you around after
results. Impact - you don't hit your targets. What hapens for your
university? Your department? People's jobs? Maybe it's not as
serious as this, but you know, I kinda think it is.

Anyway, there's a simple way out. If you decide you don't want to go
there and they won't let you out simply withdraw totally at as early a
stage as possible. Tell them you'll do that and they *might* let you
pull put and apply someplaceelse. Otherwise, heck, you go earn some
money for a year and get to fill out a bunch of forms in the process.
Probably the best thing allround.

Ian
--
Ian, Cath, Eoin & Calum Ford
The view from Beccles

I loved the words you wrote to me/But that was bloody yesterday

No e-mail address. If you want to talk to me then talk here to start with and we can go back to your place later...
Ray Pang
2004-08-22 23:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Right, but what I'm saying is forms are annoying, but they are a fact
of life.
Reluctantly agreed.
[I have horrific experience of forms almost every working day -- try
filling in one of those National Lottery Charity Board (or whatever
its current re-name is today) grant monitoring forms. If UCAS forms
were anything like the ones I've had to complete in the past, I think
we'd see a very significant drop in uni applicants.]
Post by adam
They aren't impossible, for anyone, it's like walking through jelly,
it's annoying,
Yeah, annoying... but tasty!
Post by adam
and it weeds out the people who can't be bothered.
It doesn't weed out anyone based on "oh, forms are too hard" because
nobody, no matter how stupid, can't fill in a form. Just takes
perseverence and reading the question several times slowly.
Okay, so the forms stay.
But what about the other pressures of applying to university through
this system?
But before you answer that, do you consider application through UCAS to
be as easy as a walk in a park on a warm summer evening with a light
breeze behind you? I don't.
No, it's not a walk in the park in comparison to walking in a park, but it's
a walk in the park as to what you're actually trying to apply to do.
Post by Robert de Vincy
I think there is unnecessary pressure there,
I'm not familiar with the modern UCAS form, but from what I remember it's a
mildly laborious exercise. A few personal details, your choices of uni (the
actual difficult bit), and the personal statement. From what I've read over
the years here on personal statements, they're not important. It's the
teachers and applicants that are creating the unnecessary pressure by
overemphasising their importance.
Post by Robert de Vincy
and Certain People in this thread are advocating that we need to up
this pressure in order to... whatever.
Who are these Certain People. All I've read is that Certain People think
that filling in a UCAS form is like going to the dentist. Not exactly fun,
but it's not exactly "intimidating."
Post by Robert de Vincy
Teach a lesson? Make the jobs
of a few thousand people easier (compared to easing the stress on
100.000s of people)? Making the format of the system a selective procedure
in itself?
So how would you make it easier and less pressurised?
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-23 08:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Pang
Post by Robert de Vincy
I think there is unnecessary pressure there,
I'm not familiar with the modern UCAS form, but from what I remember
it's a mildly laborious exercise. A few personal details, your choices
of uni (the actual difficult bit), and the personal statement. From
what I've read over the years here on personal statements, they're not
important. It's the teachers and applicants that are creating the
unnecessary pressure by overemphasising their importance.
So you admit there *is* pressure. Good.

If you read elsewhere, I also said that I think the forms are not the
major problem, but part of a whole system where each part adds to the
whole pressure. (Why this part of the thread is focusing just on the
forms, I don't know, but anyway...)

If we step outside our own cosy world for a moment, and try to see what
other people are doing, we'll find that "filling in forms" is, in general,
something people find unpleasant and sometimes (depending on the person
and on the nature of the form) intimidating. This is a fact that I've
discovered for myself, even though I don't understand why (I find filling
in forms to be incredibly easy, providing they're designed reasonably
well) and this goes against my own personal experience. Maybe I'm
different, I don't know, but I'm able to go outside of myself and see
the way other people behave, even if this behaviour is contradictory to
my own ability, motives, and personal experience.

Perhaps you don't believe me. I challenge anyone with enough time to
draw up a list of activities, nice stuff, scary stuff, a wide range of
things, and then ask a wide sample of people to rate how intimidating
each of those activities is. Hide "filling in official forms" (or
wording of your choice that would apply to a UCAS-style form) somewhere
in there, in amongst "going to the dentist" and "eating your favourite
food" to balance out any bias towards only rating the scary stuff. Just
see how high up the Intimidation Scale "filling in official forms" ends
at.
(And don't just sample a bunch of Cambridge buddies. You'll need a
decent sample of all the different types of people who would think
about using UCAS.)
Post by Ray Pang
Post by Robert de Vincy
and Certain People in this thread are advocating that we need to up
this pressure in order to... whatever.
Who are these Certain People. All I've read is that Certain People
think that filling in a UCAS form is like going to the dentist. Not
exactly fun, but it's not exactly "intimidating."
Certain People who want a "Firm" choice selection to be legally binding.
Hence, pressure.
Post by Ray Pang
Post by Robert de Vincy
Teach a lesson? Make the jobs
of a few thousand people easier (compared to easing the stress on
100.000s of people)? Making the format of the system a selective procedure
in itself?
So how would you make it easier and less pressurised?
I have no idea, but making your "Firm" choice a legal and binding
commitment is definitely a step in the other direction.
--
BdeV
Ray Pang
2004-08-23 11:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by Ray Pang
Post by Robert de Vincy
I think there is unnecessary pressure there,
I'm not familiar with the modern UCAS form, but from what I remember
it's a mildly laborious exercise. A few personal details, your choices
of uni (the actual difficult bit), and the personal statement. From
what I've read over the years here on personal statements, they're not
important. It's the teachers and applicants that are creating the
unnecessary pressure by overemphasising their importance.
So you admit there *is* pressure. Good.
Yes of course. As with all big decisions, there is pressure. But when the
decision is made, writing it down isn't hard.
Post by Robert de Vincy
If you read elsewhere, I also said that I think the forms are not the
major problem, but part of a whole system where each part adds to the
whole pressure. (Why this part of the thread is focusing just on the
forms, I don't know, but anyway...)
Well what I'm saying is that forms do not contribute to the problem. The
reason people have picked out form filling is because you said "The amount
of stuff I was inundated with, forms to fill in, decisions to make..." Which
suggests that having 10 or so forms to fill in (IIRC it's much less than
that) somehow makes life for applicants more stressful.
Post by Robert de Vincy
If we step outside our own cosy world for a moment, and try to see what
other people are doing, we'll find that "filling in forms" is, in general,
something people find unpleasant and sometimes (depending on the person
and on the nature of the form) intimidating.
Says who? I don't know of one person who gets flappy when an important form
needs to be filled in, so I can't just "see" that some people find filling
in forms scary. Now I'm not scared of spiders or heights, but I know/have
seen people who are, so I can entertain that as a genuinely intimidating
circumstance. I've never seen a TV programme or read an article about
somebody overcoming their fears and filling in a form.
Post by Robert de Vincy
This is a fact that I've
discovered for myself, even though I don't understand why (I find filling
in forms to be incredibly easy, providing they're designed reasonably
well) and this goes against my own personal experience. Maybe I'm
different, I don't know, but I'm able to go outside of myself and see
the way other people behave, even if this behaviour is contradictory to
my own ability, motives, and personal experience.
Perhaps you don't believe me. I challenge anyone with enough time to
draw up a list of activities, nice stuff, scary stuff, a wide range of
things, and then ask a wide sample of people to rate how intimidating
each of those activities is. Hide "filling in official forms" (or
wording of your choice that would apply to a UCAS-style form) somewhere
in there, in amongst "going to the dentist" and "eating your favourite
food" to balance out any bias towards only rating the scary stuff. Just
see how high up the Intimidation Scale "filling in official forms" ends
at.
(And don't just sample a bunch of Cambridge buddies. You'll need a
decent sample of all the different types of people who would think
about using UCAS.)
I have no Cambridge buddies.
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by Ray Pang
Post by Robert de Vincy
and Certain People in this thread are advocating that we need to up
this pressure in order to... whatever.
Who are these Certain People. All I've read is that Certain People
think that filling in a UCAS form is like going to the dentist. Not
exactly fun, but it's not exactly "intimidating."
Certain People who want a "Firm" choice selection to be legally binding.
Hence, pressure.
Ah I see. Well I do see their point, but yes, that would add pressure to the
decision making process, unnecessary or not. But not form filling.
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-23 10:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
But before you answer that, do you consider application through UCAS to
be as easy as a walk in a park on a warm summer evening with a light
breeze behind you? I don't. I think there is unnecessary pressure there,
and Certain People in this thread are advocating that we need to up
this pressure in order to... whatever. Teach a lesson? Make the jobs
of a few thousand people easier (compared to easing the stress on
100.000s of people)? Making the format of the system a selective procedure
in itself?
No, I am not asking to "up the pressure". I am simply asking that the system
be allowed to run smoothly, which is to everyone's benefit. The system works
on the basis that people make a commitment to go to a particular university
in the months before they take their A-levels. They have a period of
several months between the offers coming out and the time when the decision
has to be made to think through it properly. A system of post-A-level
commitment, as some suggest, would up the pressure more as there would be
more of rush, and quite likely students would be told things like "Right I
make you an offer - decide NOW whether you'll take it, otherwise you lose it
and I give it to someone else".

Matthew Huntbach
Ray Pang
2004-08-22 23:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I
was applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with,
forms to fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes
to understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like.
To fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone
crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.
if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Oh, great. So the filter on university application is not based on
your academic credentials and ability to study the subject, but on
how well you can cope with inflexible bureaucracy?
I think her point is more, "yes, it's hard, but it's not impossible
for anyone, and there is help available, but if you just can't be
bothered, then it doesn't show much commitment, and university
requires commitment".
Which is exactly my point. The first filter to engagement in the
university system is the filling in of the form. Nothing else matters;
if you can't pass this point, you fall at the first hurdle.
Post by adam
It's like applying for a job, there are forms to fill in, especially
on those graduate schemes, they are long and complicated, and if you
can't be arsed trawling through it, then you probably didn't want the
job very badly in the first place.
Once again, the first filter is the ability to navigate long and complex
forms. This might have bugger-all to do with the actual job you're
going to be doing, but it acts as the first barrier to entry. If you
can't pass it, you don't get the job. And that's before they even start
looking at your skills and abilities applicable directly to the job.
This might sound good (weeding out the 'weaker' people), but it won't
always automatically select the best people for the job. The job might
not have much to do with filling in forms and following rules blindly.
But if you can't show that skill, you're selected against and you're out
the door.
Anyway, I think I'm starting to edge into something I'm not intending to
say. My original reaction was to Jess's "Can't do UCAS? Can't do uni"
reply.
Right, but what I'm saying is forms are annoying, but they are a fact of
life.
They aren't impossible, for anyone, it's like walking through jelly, it's
annoying, and it weeds out the people who can't be bothered.
The original suggestion was not that they are annoying, but "intimidating".
Which is pathetic. I agree wholeheartedly with Jess that if you find filling
in forms intimidating, you're probably not university material.
Robert de Vincy
2004-08-23 07:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Ray Pang did write:

[...]
Post by Ray Pang
The original suggestion was not that they are annoying, but
"intimidating". Which is pathetic. I agree wholeheartedly with Jess
that if you find filling in forms intimidating, you're probably not
university material.
The charity I work for deals with forms of all sorts every day. Receiving
them, so we have to fill them in (applying for grants, grant-monitoring
reports, registration with statutory organizations), and sending them out,
so that the people we deal with have to fill them in. The ones we send out
and get back are real eye-openers sometimes.

Without giving too much away (it's not really wise to splatter your pesronal
details all over Usenet), the people who have to fill in the forms we
send out are qualified nurses, doctors, and hospital workers. The main
form we send out takes up two sides of A4. The questions are, on the
whole, asking for numbers not personal opinions, so it should be a
simple matter of transcribing figures from a person's medical records onto
our form. In theory, it's easy. In practice? It's almost unbelievable
that something so simple is messed up so often. And these people are not
just your average guy-on-the-street, but supposedly professionals in the
health-care industry. I have *experience* of how a group of people tackles
forms. I'm not just talking from personal experience, as it seems you and
Jess are with your "Oh, we find it easy, so everyone must find it easy"
attitude. (If I were, I would be agreeing with you, but I've seen how a
simple set of written questions can be interpreted and misinterpreted in
so many different -- and surprising -- ways.)

I wonder if UCAS have some figures about how many of their forms have to
be returned to applicants because the answers are incomplete or wrong...
--
BdeV
Ray Pang
2004-08-23 14:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
[...]
Post by Ray Pang
The original suggestion was not that they are annoying, but
"intimidating". Which is pathetic. I agree wholeheartedly with Jess
that if you find filling in forms intimidating, you're probably not
university material.
The charity I work for deals with forms of all sorts every day. Receiving
them, so we have to fill them in (applying for grants, grant-monitoring
reports, registration with statutory organizations), and sending them out,
so that the people we deal with have to fill them in. The ones we send out
and get back are real eye-openers sometimes.
Without giving too much away (it's not really wise to splatter your pesronal
details all over Usenet), the people who have to fill in the forms we
send out are qualified nurses, doctors, and hospital workers. The main
form we send out takes up two sides of A4. The questions are, on the
whole, asking for numbers not personal opinions, so it should be a
simple matter of transcribing figures from a person's medical records onto
our form. In theory, it's easy. In practice? It's almost unbelievable
that something so simple is messed up so often. And these people are not
just your average guy-on-the-street, but supposedly professionals in the
health-care industry. I have *experience* of how a group of people tackles
forms. I'm not just talking from personal experience, as it seems you and
Jess are with your "Oh, we find it easy, so everyone must find it easy"
attitude. (If I were, I would be agreeing with you, but I've seen how a
simple set of written questions can be interpreted and misinterpreted in
so many different -- and surprising -- ways.)
I wonder if UCAS have some figures about how many of their forms have to
be returned to applicants because the answers are incomplete or wrong...
--
BdeV
It sounds to me that those mistakes are through pure carelessness, and if
it's a case of transcribing figures like you say then the mistakes are
probably because they can't be bothered with them, rather than finding them
intimidating or in any way difficult.
jess
2004-08-25 16:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
I'm not just talking from personal experience, as it seems
you [Ray] and Jess are with your "Oh, we find it easy, so everyone must
find it easy" attitude.
ummm, that's not what i'm saying.

what i'm saying is that the forms *are* easy to fill in. my college was
actually a very mixed ability college, a lot of my friends/ people in my
classes were getting very low grades, so were not the "cambridge people"
that you seem to think i'm talking about, but people who would be going to
less well respected unis.

however, i don't know anyone that had a problem with filling in the ucas
form. it is self explanatory, there is a guide to filling it out, and the
teachers will help you, or ucas themselves if you're an independent student.

i honestly cannot understand why anyone would be unable to fill out a form
unless they had severe mental difficulties, or are illiterate, in which
case, my point stands that perhaps they are not the sort of person who
should be attending university.

no i don't believe that the forms themselves should be a selection
procedure, but really, if you find writing down your name, address, and a
few course codes (or the simple concept of firm and insurance offers) that
much of a task how*are* you going to cope with not only a degree, but life
in general?
Adam Atkinson
2004-08-25 19:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by jess
i honestly cannot understand why anyone would be unable to fill out a form
unless they had severe mental difficulties, or are illiterate, in which
case, my point stands that perhaps they are not the sort of person who
should be attending university.
I and several people I know had serious trouble filling in Italian
"740" income tax forms, to the extent of losing sleep over it. This
was mostly because the form is covered in warnings about how you will
(a) be fined for each mistake you make, and (b) interest will be
charged on underpayments (+40% immediately) and fines for mistakes,
and (c) it may be 8-10 years before they tell you what, if any,
mistakes you have made. One hears stories, possibly urban legends, of
people being fined many times their entire lifetime earnings - this
sounds absurd, but "absurd" is something Italy is very good at.

The form comes in multiple parts. If you determine that you need to
pay extra tax, you _also_ have to pay an advance on tax for next year
in two instalments, one immediately and one in six months.

Never, ever wishing to fill this form in again is one of the reasons I
can't imagine myself moving back to Italy.
--
Adam Atkinson (***@mistral.co.uk)
Libri e altro per matematici piu' o meno ricreativi:
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/recmathslibri.html
Toby
2004-08-25 19:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Atkinson
Post by jess
i honestly cannot understand why anyone would be unable to fill out a form
unless they had severe mental difficulties, or are illiterate, in which
case, my point stands that perhaps they are not the sort of person who
should be attending university.
I and several people I know had serious trouble filling in Italian
"740" income tax forms, to the extent of losing sleep over it. This
was mostly because the form is covered in warnings about how you will
(a) be fined for each mistake you make, and (b) interest will be
charged on underpayments (+40% immediately) and fines for mistakes,
and (c) it may be 8-10 years before they tell you what, if any,
mistakes you have made. One hears stories, possibly urban legends, of
people being fined many times their entire lifetime earnings - this
sounds absurd, but "absurd" is something Italy is very good at.
The form comes in multiple parts. If you determine that you need to
pay extra tax, you _also_ have to pay an advance on tax for next year
in two instalments, one immediately and one in six months.
Never, ever wishing to fill this form in again is one of the reasons I
can't imagine myself moving back to Italy.
Holy Shit.

Surely that's got to have been changed, since the European Human
Rights Thingy came in...
jess
2004-08-26 13:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Atkinson
Post by jess
i honestly cannot understand why anyone would be unable to fill out
a form unless they had severe mental difficulties, or are
illiterate, in which case, my point stands that perhaps they are not
the sort of person who should be attending university.
I and several people I know had serious trouble filling in Italian
"740" income tax forms, to the extent of losing sleep over it.
sorry, i meant 'a ucas form' rather than 'a form'.
Ray Pang
2004-08-26 00:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I'm not just talking from personal experience, as it seems
you [Ray] and Jess are with your "Oh, we find it easy, so everyone must
find it easy" attitude.
ummm, that's not what i'm saying.
what i'm saying is that the forms *are* easy to fill in. my college was
actually a very mixed ability college, a lot of my friends/ people in my
classes were getting very low grades, so were not the "cambridge people"
that you seem to think i'm talking about, but people who would be going to
less well respected unis.
however, i don't know anyone that had a problem with filling in the ucas
form. it is self explanatory, there is a guide to filling it out, and the
teachers will help you, or ucas themselves if you're an independent student.
i honestly cannot understand why anyone would be unable to fill out a form
unless they had severe mental difficulties, or are illiterate, in which
case, my point stands that perhaps they are not the sort of person who
should be attending university.
Careful. There are reasons (e.g. dyslexia).
Post by jess
no i don't believe that the forms themselves should be a selection
procedure, but really, if you find writing down your name, address, and a
few course codes (or the simple concept of firm and insurance offers) that
much of a task how*are* you going to cope with not only a degree, but life
in general?
Yep.
jess
2004-08-26 13:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Pang
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I'm not just talking from personal experience, as it seems
you [Ray] and Jess are with your "Oh, we find it easy, so everyone
must find it easy" attitude.
ummm, that's not what i'm saying.
what i'm saying is that the forms *are* easy to fill in. my college
was actually a very mixed ability college, a lot of my friends/
people in my classes were getting very low grades, so were not the
"cambridge people" that you seem to think i'm talking about, but
people who would be going to less well respected unis.
however, i don't know anyone that had a problem with filling in the
ucas form. it is self explanatory, there is a guide to filling it
out, and the teachers will help you, or ucas themselves if you're an
independent student.
i honestly cannot understand why anyone would be unable to fill out
a form unless they had severe mental difficulties, or are
illiterate, in which case, my point stands that perhaps they are not
the sort of person who should be attending university.
Careful. There are reasons (e.g. dyslexia).
yeh, i take your point. i guess what i'm really saying is that if someone
can't grasp the concept of the firm and insurance places, and the whole ucas
system, they should probably not be going to uni.

Ray Pang
2004-08-22 23:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by adam
Post by Robert de Vincy
Post by jess
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to
understand, it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10
years' extra experience of what the grown-up world can be like. To
fresh-faced school-leavers, it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
ummm, it's really not hard to understand.
if you can't cope with the ucas system maybe university isn't for you.
Oh, great. So the filter on university application is not based on your
academic credentials and ability to study the subject, but on how well
you can cope with inflexible bureaucracy?
I think her point is more, "yes, it's hard, but it's not impossible for
anyone, and there is help available, but if you just can't be bothered, then
it doesn't show much commitment, and university requires commitment".
I think her point is "If a bit of form filling flaps you then you're not
likely to cope with anything properly stressful. Like university." Form
filling isn't hard, just boring.
Millie
2004-08-22 06:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert de Vincy
I still think the whole process could be softened, though. When I was
applying last year, the amount of stuff I was inundated with, forms to
fill in, decisions to make by strict deadlines, processes to
understand,
Post by Robert de Vincy
it was all quite intimidating, and I was 28 with 10 years' extra experience
of what the grown-up world can be like. To fresh-faced
school-leavers,
Post by Robert de Vincy
it must seem like bureaucracy gone crazy.
Surely school leavers aren't expected to wade through it all alone? When
my daughter was applying last year, she just gave me all her letters and
asked me to explain what they meant. That's what parents are for... and
IIRC it was made very clear that "firm choice" meant just that.
Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-20 16:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davido
Post by Matthew Huntbach
You are? Once you are accepted by your Firm choice, that's it. You can't
just "go into clearing" on a whim because you've changed your mind. I've
already had a couple of students phone me and asked to be released from
their commitments to come to the degree programme I'm admissions tutor for
and I've said "No". All other admissions tutors should do the same as that's
the only way to protect the integrity of the system.
So you'd rather have students forced to go to a university / do a
course completely against their wishes as opposed to let them do
whatever's the best option for them? Do you really want to tutor
students who don't give a shit for 3 years because "I never wanted to
go here", as opposed to replacing them with clearing students with
perhaps worse grades but a better attitude?
But it's not a case of "I never wanted to go here". We're talking about
students who put their signature on a form saying yes they did want to go
there, please reserve me a place. All I'm saying is that if people don't
wamnt to go to a particular university then they shouldn't make it their
Firm or Insurance choice under the UCAS system. It's the same as in any
other area of adult life, if you make an agreement and sign up to the
conditions attached to that agreement, you are expected to keep it. If I
book a holiday and decide at the last minute I don't want to go on it, I
lose my deposit. If I take out a fixed rate mortgage and find a better one,
I have to pay the penalty charge to be released from it early. If I take a
job and decide I want another, I have to work out my period of notice.
Post by Davido
What if their mum's ill so they want to go to their local uni, is that
"tough luck"?
That would count as exceptional circumstances, and thus would be grounds for
a release from UCAS commitments as laid down in the UCAS handbook. What is
specifically ruled out in the UCAS handbook, which is the terms and
agreements that anyone who goes through UCAS has signed to agree they will
abide with is "Sudden chanegs of mind about courses".

Matthew Huntbach
2004-08-20 01:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rachel
Post by Dave
...But I just got stuck in a circle of extensions so I'll give up
Don't give up.
My partner gave up on his college course, and he's now stuck in a dead end
job, and now trying to get into University the "hard way".
What is the hard way?
Alun Harford
2004-08-19 16:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
...But I just got stuck in a circle of extensions so I'll give up
Do you want to do it? Keep going!!!
Most universities give offers significantly above what they'll actually
accept, so you might well get in anyway (I got in by phoning my uni).
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