Post by Matthew HuntbachPost by Stuart WilliamsPost by Matthew HuntbachPost by Stuart WilliamsCalling all geriatrics on this group (i.e., Ginnie, Ian, JHP, Matthew,
Alan), don't you find this "I can't conceive of working more than 40
hours a week" thread completely amazing? i
No.
40 hours per week is plenty. In fact we in Britain work longer hours on
average than other western European countries, yet as you note seem to have
little to show for it - France and Germany have shorter working hours, more
holidays, yet better productivity.
I don't think anyone should be forced or expected to work more than 40 hours
a week. In fact I believe our long hours culture in this country is hugely
damaging, leading to much unhappiness, disfunctional families and poor
performance. Good on the people here to reject it.
Actually, I wasn't promoting the view that we /should/ all be delighted
to work long hours, I was pointing out
1. 14k per year is respectable, but is unlikely to give you a high living
standard - unless you live in a low-cost area and have a fairly Spartan
life-style.
I found your 14k figure to be extremely dubious.
Could be.
Post by Matthew HuntbachI seem to recall that the
average salary in the UK is somewhat above 20k.
Average (mean) earnings are indeed about 25k, but over two-thirds of
earners receive less than this, which is why I was talking about the
median. Included in the calculation of that average figure are the
bonuses of City professionals. If you take out the top decile, you get a
lower average income (though still higher than 16k, I guess). Also,
there's no information there about typical hours worked. I stand by the
assertion that anyone who restricts their working week to 36 hours is
likely to earn considerably less than median earnings.
Post by Matthew HuntbachNow you wrote "median
income", which perhaps includes all those retired, on benefit etc, and is a
median rather than a mean, so that is perhaps how you came up with 16k.
Nevertheless, I think your claim that anyone working less than 40 hours per
week is going to be taking about 14k income is completely absurd. Most desk
jobs have a standard working week of 37.5 hours, and most desk jobs pay more
than 14k a week.
Do they? Here are some annual pay rates picked from my local free paper:
Mental Health Business Support Manager 18-20k
NHS Practice Support Manager 14k-17k
Speech and Language Thereapy Asst 11k-17.6k
Manager of a EPoS Retail system 12.7k-15k
Accounts Payable Asst 14k-15k
Temporary Housekeeping Supervisor (including weekend work)12k
Pharmacy Asst (NHS Hospital) 10k
Police Detention Officer 13.6k-17k
And these are all in the high-cost high-wage South East. So I don't agree
that my claim is completely absurd. People with little experience are
frequently looking at less than 14k, and frequently at more than 37.5
hours work.
Post by Matthew HuntbachPost by Stuart Williams2. If you want a living standard comparable to those of our nearest
European neighbours, you'll need to work longer hours than many people
here seem prepared for.
Rubbish. There are plenty of jobs where you can work around 37.5 hours a
week and have a reasonable salary. If you mean that people on average need
to work longer than 40 hours per week in order for our country to enjoy
what our continental neighbours enjoy, since the average working week in
Britain is greater than it is in our continental neighbours it is quite
obviously completely untrue.
Er, I'm saying something like: the median earings in Germany and the
Netherlands are about 8-10% higher than in the UK, so other things being
equal, we have to work about 10% longer in order to enjoy similar living
standards, i.e. 40+ as against 37+.
There's also the tricky question of the "social wage" - the top-up of
your income in money or in direct services, such as healthcare and
education, provided by the welfare state. My understanding is that the
social wage in continental Western Europe is considerably higher than it
is in the UK.
And as to "a reasonable salary", yes - but it all depends on what you
want to do with that salary - own your own home? smoke and drink a fair
bit? Have two foreign holidays a year? raise three children? My point
remains that many of the newer graduates on this newsgroup will soon find
that they either need a bigger income than they thought, or need to scale
down their ambitions to match what will turn out to be a rather
restrictive income. [Presumably, London University is struggling to
attract young academics to take up lecturer posts because the starting
salary of 20k goes nowhere in London.]
As a further point - many younger workers who want promotion will
probably need to work longer than 40 hours for two reasons: to impress
on their superiors that they are dedicated and determined, and to acquire
sufficient experience.
Post by Matthew HuntbachIt is surely completely, utterly and absolutely absurd that on the one hand we
have all sorts of technological developments to make our life easier, and on
the other hand there are people telling us we must work longer to be
prosperous. When I was young we were told that lesiure hours would increase
as technology took away the necessity for work. So what has happened to this
idea?
They have increased, but not as rapidly as in the rest of Western Europe.
Post by Matthew HuntbachPost by Stuart WilliamsPersonal question: do you work less than 40 hours a week?
Don't believe academics *too* much when they tell you about long working
hours. It is remarkably quiet round where I am now. I don't think I work
much more than 40 hours per week in the academic job. I think if I cut out
all the extra things I do because I enjoy doing them, and if I wasn't
bothered about promotion chances, I could very easily cut my work down
to well below 40 hours a week.
But you do work more than 40 hours! And I agree - I often take on new
projects which I don't have to do - because they might be interesting,
enjoyable, challenging and helpful to other people (and maybe to me).
This is another of my fundamental points - work need not be seen as the
enemy of happiness: it's often fulfilling and enables you to help others.
There may be people out there working 50 hours a week because they relish
it.
Stuart Williams