Discussion:
Computer Science And Women...
(too old to reply)
Samsonknight
2004-10-03 15:21:57 UTC
Permalink
hello,

I know it is common for Computer Science based degrees to be full of men,
how do you male students cope under these circumstances (which in my case is
rather rather off putting) - surely you must be annoyed that there are a
lack of females to socialise with as all work and no play makes jack a dull
boy!
Matt Johnson
2004-10-03 15:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
hello,
I know it is common for Computer Science based degrees to be full of men,
how do you male students cope under these circumstances (which in my case is
rather rather off putting) - surely you must be annoyed that there are a
lack of females to socialise with as all work and no play makes jack a dull
boy!
Simply, nothing stops you socializing outside of your course cohort.
Folks in halls will socialize with people in their hall; and many
universities have good clubs and societies (Imperial particularly so),
providing another social outlet.

- --M

- --
Matt Johnson <***@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Junior Systems Programmer
Computing Support Group

"Computer viruses can affect humans, too. When one trashed my hard disk
I felt sick for a week."
- Mike Knowles
cowboy carl
2004-10-03 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
hello,
I know it is common for Computer Science based degrees to be full of men,
how do you male students cope under these circumstances (which in my case
is rather rather off putting) - surely you must be annoyed that there are
a lack of females to socialise with as all work and no play makes jack a
dull boy!
As Matt said, still possible to socialise outside of your course, and halls
are where (in my experience) most long term friends are made, rather than
with people in your own course.

It does get depressing tho, cos lectures and courses are where you seem to
spend most of your life. I like to compare it like this: A computing
lecture is like having a lecture in a cement hole. With brown shit stains on
the wall (i.e. ugly). Whereas an arty lecture (like Philosophy) is more
like having a lecture outside in the 5pm sunshine on a midsummer afternoon
with a cool breeze and the smell of roses in the air (i.e. surrounded by
objects of immense beauty).

Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)

cc
Mr Power
2004-10-03 16:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by cowboy carl
It does get depressing tho, cos lectures and courses are where you seem to
spend most of your life. I like to compare it like this: A computing
lecture is like having a lecture in a cement hole. With brown shit stains
on the wall (i.e. ugly).
I'm sure your computing friends will love you referring to them as shit
stains.
cowboy carl
2004-10-03 16:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr Power
Post by cowboy carl
It does get depressing tho, cos lectures and courses are where you seem
to spend most of your life. I like to compare it like this: A computing
lecture is like having a lecture in a cement hole. With brown shit stains
on the wall (i.e. ugly).
I'm sure your computing friends will love you referring to them as shit
stains.
I'm referring to all men in general.

That includes you Mr Power.

I find a room full of men about as attractive as a room full of spiders, or
ants, or mouldy potatoes.

cc
Robert de Vincy
2004-10-03 17:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by cowboy carl
It does get depressing tho, cos lectures and courses are where you
seem to spend most of your life. I like to compare it like this: A
computing lecture is like having a lecture in a cement hole. With
brown shit stains on the wall (i.e. ugly). Whereas an arty lecture
(like Philosophy) is more like having a lecture outside in the 5pm
sunshine on a midsummer afternoon with a cool breeze and the smell of
roses in the air (i.e. surrounded by objects of immense beauty).
Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)
Or try Linguistics.

I've just looked at this year's course list for Phonology 2. Out of 50
students listed, 39 are female and 11 are male.
For Syntax 2, out of 58 students, 44 are female and 14 are male.

I guess Linguistics is a girly subject. BUT YOU DON'T SEE ME COMPLAINING!
--
BdeV
Toby
2004-10-03 19:10:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 17:02:27 +0100, "cowboy carl" <***@lka.ds.mkd>
wrote:

<snip>
Post by cowboy carl
Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)
cc
Heaven help us all :P
cowboy carl
2004-10-03 19:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toby
<snip>
Post by cowboy carl
Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)
cc
Heaven help us all :P
Maybe I will ... maybe I won't ....

cc
Toby
2004-10-03 20:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by cowboy carl
Post by Toby
<snip>
Post by cowboy carl
Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)
cc
Heaven help us all :P
Maybe I will ... maybe I won't ....
cc
hehe if YOU are meant to be paradise :P
Samsonknight
2004-10-03 20:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by cowboy carl
Post by Toby
<snip>
Post by cowboy carl
Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)
cc
Heaven help us all :P
Maybe I will ... maybe I won't ....
cc
Joking aside, I am seriously interested in doing philosophy - however I do
not know where it will lead to after I complete it (career wise). Anyway, do
many unis give you the opportunity to do that as an applied subject on top
of your majors? How do applied subjects work, is it the equivilent as
getting another degree - or is it less valuable?
cowboy carl
2004-10-03 22:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
Post by cowboy carl
Post by Toby
<snip>
Post by cowboy carl
Which is why I'm doing a Philosophy course next year :)
cc
Heaven help us all :P
Maybe I will ... maybe I won't ....
cc
Joking aside, I am seriously interested in doing philosophy - however I do
not know where it will lead to after I complete it (career wise). Anyway,
do many unis give you the opportunity to do that as an applied subject on
top of your majors? How do applied subjects work, is it the equivilent as
getting another degree - or is it less valuable?
At Gimperial, we can do a humanities course instead of one of our regular
courses.

I'm doing it instead of a maths course, cos I suck at maths.

Or we can do it in a non-assessed way so it doesn't count towards our
degree.

But either way, we can't include it in our degree title.

Some other unis do things like Physics and Philosophy tho.

cc
Matt Johnson
2004-10-04 18:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by cowboy carl
At Gimperial, we can do a humanities course instead of one of our regular
courses.
I'm doing it instead of a maths course, cos I suck at maths.
I'm wildly assuming you aren't a Computing 1st year UG then (hint: if
you are, your understanding of how humanities work in Yr 1 is faulty)!

- --M

- --
Matt Johnson <***@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Junior Systems Programmer
Computing Support Group

"Computers are the most intelligent idiots there are."
- Norman Teller
cowboy carl
2004-10-04 23:25:55 UTC
Permalink
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Post by cowboy carl
At Gimperial, we can do a humanities course instead of one of our regular
courses.
I'm doing it instead of a maths course, cos I suck at maths.
I'm wildly assuming you aren't a Computing 1st year UG then (hint: if you
are, your understanding of how humanities work in Yr 1 is faulty)!
You wildly assume correctly.

In fact, had you been paying very close attention, you may know my identity.

I change it so as to fool certain lecturers and staff who may or may not be
monitoring this newsgroup for various things which may or may not be posted
on it.

cc
Matt Johnson
2004-10-05 12:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by cowboy carl
You wildly assume correctly.
In fact, had you been paying very close attention, you may know my identity.
I change it so as to fool certain lecturers and staff who may or may not be
monitoring this newsgroup for various things which may or may not be posted
on it.
Ah, ok. I do, then.

- --M

- --
Matt Johnson <***@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Junior Systems Programmer
Computing Support Group

"Computers which are misbehaving will behave perfectly in the presence
of a helpdesk agent."
- Graf, 'Murphys Computergesetze'
PAULA
2004-10-04 13:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Can you give me some advice on avce ict unit 12
Samsonknight
2004-10-04 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by PAULA
Can you give me some advice on avce ict unit 12
I wish I could, but I did A-level ICT, was going to do AVCE but opted to do
2 other alevels instead.
Dave
2004-10-03 18:08:38 UTC
Permalink
I'm doing a computery course and its crap... the lack of minxes I mean.
There are only 70 computer students at the university and only a dozen or
less are female. Luckily the art building is next door and there seems to be
a fair number of firery, gothic & fiesty minxes in attendance there!
Samsonknight
2004-10-03 19:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
I'm doing a computery course and its crap... the lack of minxes I mean.
There are only 70 computer students at the university and only a dozen or
less are female. Luckily the art building is next door and there seems to
be a fair number of firery, gothic & fiesty minxes in attendance there!
*re-considers computer animation as a degree*.... :)
Matthew Huntbach
2004-10-04 15:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
I know it is common for Computer Science based degrees to be full of men,
how do you male students cope under these circumstances (which in my case is
rather rather off putting) - surely you must be annoyed that there are a
lack of females to socialise with as all work and no play makes jack a dull
boy!
Computer Science wasn't always seen as a mainly male subject. When I did
my degree at Imperial it had a higher proportion of female students than
most other subjects.

Matthew Huntbach
Samsonknight
2004-10-04 17:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Samsonknight
I know it is common for Computer Science based degrees to be full of men,
how do you male students cope under these circumstances (which in my case is
rather rather off putting) - surely you must be annoyed that there are a
lack of females to socialise with as all work and no play makes jack a dull
boy!
Computer Science wasn't always seen as a mainly male subject. When I did
my degree at Imperial it had a higher proportion of female students than
most other subjects.
Matthew Huntbach
What happened Matt? Why are women less willing to take it. I would have
thought that as "ICT" is now the "it" thing (in terms of cash), more women
would be inclined to take it now then back then (makes sense doesn't it?).
You are a very lucky chap if that was the case in your time!
Matt Johnson
2004-10-04 18:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Computer Science wasn't always seen as a mainly male subject. When I did
my degree at Imperial it had a higher proportion of female students than
most other subjects.
What happened Matt? Why are women less willing to take it. I would have
thought that as "ICT" is now the "it" thing (in terms of cash), more women
would be inclined to take it now then back then (makes sense doesn't it?).
You are a very lucky chap if that was the case in your time!
I'm sure Matthew will respond, but I think it may well have had
something to do with the fact that Computer Science / Computing was seen
as much more mathematical during its formative years as a degree
subject.

- --M

- --
Matt Johnson <***@doc.ic.ac.uk>
Junior Systems Programmer
Computing Support Group

"If architects designed buildings the way programmers wrote programs,
then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilisation."
- Anon
Matthew Huntbach
2004-10-05 09:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Computer Science wasn't always seen as a mainly male subject. When I did
my degree at Imperial it had a higher proportion of female students than
most other subjects.
What happened Matt? Why are women less willing to take it. I would have
thought that as "ICT" is now the "it" thing (in terms of cash), more women
would be inclined to take it now then back then (makes sense doesn't it?).
You are a very lucky chap if that was the case in your time!
I'm sure Matthew will respond, but I think it may well have had something to
do with the fact that Computer Science / Computing was seen as much more
mathematical during its formative years as a degree subject.
But maths, particularly in those days, was seen as a very male thing,
and so the fact that Computer Science is not recognised as a maths-based
subject to the extent that it was ought to have resulted in it becoming
a subject more popular with women, not less.

The fact is I don't know the answer to this one. I'm not a 17 year old
female, so how can I know why Computer Science seems so unattractive to
17 year old females? There have been theories put forward, but I don't think
anyone has a clear answer. The most popular theory notes that the decline
of female applicants to Computer Science coincided with the introduction
of home computers and computers at school. It goes on to suggest that the
image of computers got tied up with the computer games culture, which is
overwhelmingly male, or that computers in school were hogged by the boys
and this put the girls off.

Matthew Huntbach
Dr A. N. Walker
2004-10-05 13:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
But maths, particularly in those days, was seen as a very male thing,
Not universally. We used regularly to get over 40% females,
and one year over 50%. Now it's nearer to 30%. Part of this is no
doubt caused by Oxbridge opening up generally to more females, and
of course taking these from other top univs. But in any case, if
the answer to "Why is compsci male-dominated?" is some version of
"Because maths is", then it's just shifting the question. Why is
physics male-dominated but chemistry female-dominated? Why do these
sorts of imbalance persist over decades? Who knows.
Post by Matthew Huntbach
[...] I'm not a 17 year old
female, so how can I know why Computer Science seems so unattractive to
17 year old females? [...]
Of course, one possible answer is that it is taught by
unattractive middle-aged males. But I agree with your general
thesis, that no-one really knows, despite lots of theories.
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
***@maths.nott.ac.uk
Matthew Huntbach
2004-10-05 16:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Post by Matthew Huntbach
But maths, particularly in those days, was seen as a very male thing,
Not universally. We used regularly to get over 40% females,
and one year over 50%. Now it's nearer to 30%.
Yes, at Queen Mary Maths seems to have quite a high proportion of females,
I think 50% has been hit at times. I did think this was a fairly recent
development though.
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Part of this is no
doubt caused by Oxbridge opening up generally to more females, and
of course taking these from other top univs. But in any case, if
the answer to "Why is compsci male-dominated?" is some version of
"Because maths is", then it's just shifting the question. Why is
physics male-dominated but chemistry female-dominated? Why do these
sorts of imbalance persist over decades? Who knows.
The suggestion I was replying to was that Computer Science had become
more male dominated because it had become less associated with maths.
Is it now commonly believed that maths is a female-attracting thing?
That would surely be something of a reversal of previous assumptions.
However, I'm not trying to shift the question, as I do believe there is
a particular CS image problem.
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Post by Matthew Huntbach
[...] I'm not a 17 year old
female, so how can I know why Computer Science seems so unattractive to
17 year old females? [...]
Of course, one possible answer is that it is taught by
unattractive middle-aged males. But I agree with your general
thesis, that no-one really knows, despite lots of theories.
It's enough that it's *believed* to be taught by unattractive middle-aged
males. Is Maths believed to be taught by more attractive and/or more
female staff? When it comes to university applications, what students
believe matters more than what is actually the truth.

Matthew Huntbach
Samsonknight
2004-10-05 19:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Huntbach
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Post by Matthew Huntbach
But maths, particularly in those days, was seen as a very male thing,
Not universally. We used regularly to get over 40% females,
and one year over 50%. Now it's nearer to 30%.
Yes, at Queen Mary Maths seems to have quite a high proportion of females,
I think 50% has been hit at times. I did think this was a fairly recent
development though.
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Part of this is no
doubt caused by Oxbridge opening up generally to more females, and
of course taking these from other top univs. But in any case, if
the answer to "Why is compsci male-dominated?" is some version of
"Because maths is", then it's just shifting the question. Why is
physics male-dominated but chemistry female-dominated? Why do these
sorts of imbalance persist over decades? Who knows.
The suggestion I was replying to was that Computer Science had become
more male dominated because it had become less associated with maths.
Is it now commonly believed that maths is a female-attracting thing?
That would surely be something of a reversal of previous assumptions.
However, I'm not trying to shift the question, as I do believe there is
a particular CS image problem.
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Post by Matthew Huntbach
[...] I'm not a 17 year old
female, so how can I know why Computer Science seems so unattractive to
17 year old females? [...]
Of course, one possible answer is that it is taught by
unattractive middle-aged males. But I agree with your general
thesis, that no-one really knows, despite lots of theories.
It's enough that it's *believed* to be taught by unattractive middle-aged
males. Is Maths believed to be taught by more attractive and/or more
female staff? When it comes to university applications, what students
believe matters more than what is actually the truth.
Could modern day stereotypes be the cause of why CS is not attracting the
fairer sex? As those that choose"Computer Science" are normally labelled as
"geeks" and being a geek is normally associated with words such as
"uncool","sad","boring","fat glasses"...

However if that is the case, I have no idea why this prejudice or stereotype
is not placed on those doing chemestry,maths as that is equally "boffinish"
in its own way.
Dr A. N. Walker
2004-10-06 10:29:22 UTC
Permalink
[...]. Is Maths believed to be taught by more attractive and/or more
female staff?
Well, it *is* so taught here ....
When it comes to university applications, what students
believe matters more than what is actually the truth.
You mean that the sexy students who show applicants around
on your visit days, and the coolly attractive secretaries who take
names as they arrive, and the lithe admissions tutor with the
piercing blue eyes who gives the talks ... that all these people
are not typical of your department? We organise things better!
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
***@maths.nott.ac.uk
Matthew Huntbach
2004-10-07 09:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
[...]. Is Maths believed to be taught by more attractive and/or more
female staff?
Well, it *is* so taught here ....
I realised to my horror the other day that after 15 years in the job,
I'm now the third longest serving lecturer in our department. Computer
Science at Queen Mary is a notably young faculty, and 5 of the 28 teaching
staff are women. I am pretty sure we beat the Maths dept on these grounds,
though I hesitate to comment on relative attractiveness.
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
When it comes to university applications, what students
believe matters more than what is actually the truth.
You mean that the sexy students who show applicants around
on your visit days, and the coolly attractive secretaries who take
names as they arrive, and the lithe admissions tutor with the
piercing blue eyes who gives the talks ... that all these people
are not typical of your department? We organise things better!
I keep well out of the way on admissions day ... . In the boom years for
Computer Science we actually had someone with the specific job of making
the subject sound hard and mathematical to put off the unsuitable, but
in these more challenging times, well, yes I think there has been a tendency
for the admissions day talk to be given by young and/or female lecturers.

Sexiness of students is something middle-aged lecturers had definitely to
put out of our minds, I would not dare comment on the young ladies that the
people who design Queen Mary's prospectus seem to have chosen to illustrate
the Computer Science section ...

Matthew Huntbach
Dave
2004-10-07 21:04:54 UTC
Permalink
"...we actually had someone with the specific job of making
the subject sound hard and mathematical to put off the unsuitable"

Very interesting Mr Huntbach.... would those be the ones you wouldn't
release into clearing?
Matthew Huntbach
2004-10-08 10:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
"...we actually had someone with the specific job of making
the subject sound hard and mathematical to put off the unsuitable"
Very interesting Mr Huntbach.... would those be the ones you wouldn't
release into clearing?
If a student didn't want to do the course because he or she had a major
misunderstanding about what it involved and wasn't really prepared to
do what is entailed in academic Computer Science, I would be happy to
release that student into clearing. However, it would be much better for
both the student and us had the student never made us their Firm or
Insurance choice in the first place.

Releasing a student into clearing means that a place one had thought was
filled and had rejected other students for because it was thought to be filled
becomes empty at a time when there are few new enquiries and so it is very
difficult to fill it with a suitable student. If a large number of students
request to be released into clearing, the consequences are that a
department has fewer students than it planned for. Ultimately this
could mean people losing their jobs because the funding the department
has, which pays for its staff salaries, depends on the number of
students it has. Do you think I as an admissions tutor should lightly
agree to students breaking the rules they had agreed to in such a way
that people's jobs are on line?

Release into clearing is meant to be done only under exceptional
circumstances so that the one or two students who might unexpectedly be
lost in that way do not have a serious effect on department finances.
However, it seems increasingly students are believing that release into
clearing should be granted automatically just because they ask for it.
All I am asking is that students keep to their side of the deal in the UCAS
system just as universities keep to ours - we agree to give students the
place they accepted, we don't turn round at the start of term and say
"sorry, we've had some better students apply in clearing, so we've decided
not to give you a place after all"; students should agree to take the
place they've made their choice under the UCAS system and not turn round
at the last minute and say "sorry, I've found somewhere else in clearing,
so I'm not coming to your university".

I've checked my records, and this year I've had 10 students requesting
release into clearing, not one of them for a reason that is justified
under the rules which UCAS sets down and students are supposed to have
agreed to when they signed their UCAS form. With an intake of just over
a hundred students, that has had a serious effect on numbers and quite
likely will damage our department. The reality is, however, that if
students make a big fuss and ring up shouting abuse over the phone if
you won't release them into clearing - as several of these did - there is
not much you can do, except agree to their request even though under the
rules that UCAS sets down you are not supposed to.

Funnily enough, one of the students who made a huge fuss about being
released into clearing to go somewhere "better" (i.e. a couple of
places higher in some newspaper league table) decided he didn't like it
there and is currently making a huge fuss to get released again and come
back to us.

Matthew Huntbach

K. Edgcombe
2004-10-06 11:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
of course taking these from other top univs. But in any case, if
the answer to "Why is compsci male-dominated?" is some version of
"Because maths is", then it's just shifting the question. Why is
At Cambridge, at any rate, CS is very much *more* male-dominated than maths (or
engineering, or physics). Thirty years ago or more, CS had more women than
men. Maths can't be the only explanation.
Post by Dr A. N. Walker
Post by Matthew Huntbach
[...] I'm not a 17 year old
female, so how can I know why Computer Science seems so unattractive to
17 year old females? [...]
Of course, one possible answer is that it is taught by
unattractive middle-aged males.
And maths isn't?

I can understand this being a factor to put people off after they've arrived at
University; but I doubt whether many 17-year-olds enquire before deciding on a
subject into the age or gender profile of their teachers.

My only real hypothesis is the computers-in-schools one, as I have previously
discussed with Matthew. There is also a fair bit of research around on these
issues, and as far as I know nobody's produced a really convincing answer.

An interesting point is that the perception of CS as a male subject doesn't
seem to operate in the Asian community, either from the Far East or British.

Katy
John Porcella
2004-10-04 20:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samsonknight
hello,
I know it is common for Computer Science based degrees to be full of men,
how do you male students cope under these circumstances (which in my case is
rather rather off putting) - surely you must be annoyed that there are a
lack of females to socialise with as all work and no play makes jack a dull
boy!
Lecture theatres are surely not the only place to meet people? There is the
bar after all!
--
MESSAGE ENDS.
John Porcella
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