Post by jrgPost by wooksThe ability to distill the relevant information from a specification is
pretty fundamental prequisite for a computer scientist. I don't know
whether it's something u learn from A' level maths but it is something
you learn from industry. Don't they teach it at York? So what you
should have done is posted this link.
http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/admit/EntryPolicy.php#mature
OK maybe I'm being childish here but I've got time on my hands right
now so I'm going to respond point by point here, in detail. I doubt
anyone will even bother reading this, which is why I didn't reply in
the first place, but you refuse to accept that I read and understood
what you wrote.
So, here, point 1, did I correctly understand that web page? Yes. The
first of my two quotes was from a section entitled "Information - from
you to us". There is nothing to indicate that at least some of this
section might not apply to mature applicants.
The extract that you provided came slap band in the middle of a
section that was clearly and specifically targeted at candidates
seeking admission on the basis of their examination results.
Post by jrgThe second of my two
quotations was from the section you indicate "Mature applicants", as I
felt it particularly relevant. I specifically chose to post the general
link rather than the anchor link you offered because half of my
quotations were not beneath said anchor link.
The information expected and required from mature students (including
educational qualifications) was quite distinctly stated in this
section.
Post by jrg- I quoted
Post by wooksI have worked for a big 5 consulting firm, for NM Rothschilds the
investment bank, for a major UK clearing bank, for BT (on repeated
occasions) I have also work for a consulting company in New Zealand and
on both the east and west coast of the United states. No shortage of
work experience. Most of that was on my application form.
I have read this multiple times now. At no point have I argued this
isn't the case.
You extracted a link stating that the most common reason for
applications failing is a lack of information and I responded giving a
flavour of the amount of information that was on my application. There
was enough information on there for UCL and City.
<snip>
Post by jrgPost by wooksIf anything Yorks policy is acad
Post by Samsonknight<snip>
- We do not admit applicants on the basis of work experience alone.
Another important ability you learn from industry is to pay attention
to the detail in the specification.
I didn't apply on the basis of work experience alone.
Nonetheless, along with your reference and enthusiasm for the course
(which almost all applicants will have), your work experience did seem
to be your main point, and it is the point you keep reiterating.
You're a patronising sod aren't you.
You want to come and argue a point but won't make the effort to get
your facts right and are so ready to substitute with assumption and
speculation.
Let me demonstrate
<quote>*****I did make my objectives very clear in my application. I
said I had
spent 20 years observing industry practices come to the conclusion that
it was at best benign hacking and that I wanted to learn a more
epistemological approach to software development which I saw centred
around logic and functional programming techniques and formal methods.
All that was clearly stated in my application. *****</quote>
Now I know you read that because the next line of that post was where I
mentioned that I had programmed in Visual Basic. You reffered to that
and wrongly assumed that it was in my application. AAMOF it is quite
illustrative of your patronising attitude to see what I did actually
say about Visual Basic in that next paragraph and how you responded.
<quote>***** I have built applications in Visual Basic and imperative
programming languages and didn't particularly want to be taught stuff
that I had already had plenty experiece of or could get experience of
by staying
in industry ****** </quote>
Now you read that and came up with this
<yourQuote>***** b) Computer Science admissions tutors don't care at
all how much you know about "IT" and Visual Basic ******</yourQuote>
Post by jrgPost by wooksSo you haven't got a computing degree , you have about 20 years less
experience in the industry than I do and you are reliant on the
experience of your dad and your friends experience for your
information. All of which seems to make you spectacularly unqualified
to offer informed perspective.
Spectacularly unqualified to comment on e.g. trends in the IT industry,
programming paradigms, etc. However, on the issue of university
admissions, particularly to the University of York, I am actually
really very well qualified to offer a perspective.
Why did you think you needed to do that. I had already stated here that
I had had an explanation from York about their decision.
Post by jrgPost by wooksAnother thing you will learn from working in industry is not to make
assumptions. Don't they teach that at York.
I never mentioned on my application that I knew anything about IT and I
did not mention that I had programmed in Visual Basic (I mentioned it
in this thread not on my application). OK.
OK, the Visual Basic comment was very lazy, sorry, but nonetheless, you
did for some reason specifically mention it in this thread. My point
was, industry experience does not equal academic experience. They are
different.
Apology accepted.
My point to you is that an A'level ain't jack shit as academic
experience but it's what AT's have come to rely on for the majority of
their applicants who come straight from school.
CS AT's are looking to admit people who have the potential to be
successful in a CS degree course. They say and I have no reason to
doubt that Maths A'levels have been a reliable indicator for this but
the unstated qualification to that statement should be pardon my caps
FOR THOSE COMING STRAIGHT FROM SCHOOL.
On the other hand you may get an application from a person who left
school at 16 and has been commercially successful writing games
software or developing some sort of mobile phone technology.
Clearly you should be assessing their potential on criteria other than
A levels. It may not result in an offer - maybe as Matthew has said an
AT may feel that the person would be bored or not happy on the course,
but the thrust of what I am saying is that it is that A levels are not
the only indicator of the potential that AT's should be looking for.
Post by jrgPost by wooksI did mention that I had been programming in Scheme (which is something
else you would have picked up from a careful reading of my "spec" and
something else that you'll need to learn if you are going to prosper in
this industry).
I read that, yes.
Post by wooksScheme happens to be the language that York use in their first year to
teach. That meant that I wouldn't be asking lecturers at York how I was
going to benefit from using this poxy obscure language that nobody
uses in industry - because I already knew.
Certainly, I don't think anyone would doubt that you were not serious
and motivated in your application.
You're patronising me again.
Look here's an excerpt from my personal statement.
<quote>******* My leisure time is spent learning languages like Scheme
and Lisp and numbered amongst my ambitions is a desire to join the
ranks of people who can say they have read and understood the Structure
and Interpretations of Computer Programs. The speed at which new
languages and technologies are foisted upon us outstrips my ability to
assimilate without a solid
foundation. *****</quote>
Now a week after I wrote that I found this in Yorks syllabus at
http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/admit/Modules/pop.html
<YorkQuote>****The language we shall use, scheme, is ideal for the
purposes of the module since it is very simple notationally (you don't
have to learn lots of rules), but very powerful conceptually (all
styles of programming can be clearly represented). In fact, it is so
simple that we shall spend less than 10% of the time teaching scheme
explicitly - you will learn it by using it to think about the
Principles of Programming. The module is strongly based on what has
been described as ``the best computer science book, ever'' - Abelson
and Sussman's Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (see
book-list, below). This is a book that you absolutely must buy, read,
and study carefully. Although it is not used explicitly in other
modules in your course, you will be able to use it to gain deeper
insight into Computer Science as you study further topics.
The module structure is based on the Teach-Consolidate-Assess cycle.
Each week's lectures will normally consist of two lectures introducing
new material followed by a third deepening your understanding by
looking at the material in new ways. There will be supervised
practicals each week, and consolidation exercises for you to do in your
own time. The module covers the first half of Abelson and Sussman's
book (see below). You should expect to spend a high proportion of your
"private study" time reading the text, and trying the (many) problems
and exercises that are presented there. ******</YorkQuote>
The text of SICP is on the web, 3 of the 4 other books recommended for
that course were already in my personal library. That is why I felt
that my application was especially relevant to York and I specifically
took time to look. Their reply to me was and I quote
<Yorkquote>***** We have now reviewed your UCAS application and whilst
we were
impressed with your computing background and Scheme experience, it
really was the absence of a strong Mathematics qualification that stood
against you. Mathematics is one of the most important aspects of our
entry requirements and experience has shown that students without
A-level
Maths or equivalent competency will struggle with our course.
</Yorkquote>
Post by jrgPost by wooksPost by SamsonknightIf you can convince York (or somewhere else, if you want to go
somewhere else) that you have studied a lot of maths, they might well
offer you a place, if you can't, they won't, and no amount of "I've
worked in IT for years!" will make any difference.
I know nothing about what IMIS is.
Then you should have taken care to find out before deciding to comment.
Thats another skill that goes down well in industry.
It's not like you just made one or two sarcy comments to amuse
yourself, you make them in practically every paragraph. If I responded
in the same way you do this would degenerate into nothing but putdowns.
In every instance what I gave you was good advice. It was laced in
sarcasm in response to your patronising tone of your post. I've already
explained this.
Post by jrgPost by wooksPost by SamsonknightIs the Maths equivalent in
difficulty to A-level Maths/Further Maths?
The equivalences are posted on the IMIS website. Doesn't the university
experience at York cultivate an enquiring mind.
I assume because you have not said "yes" the answer is therefore "no".
Sometimes assumptions are a valid way of saving one's time.
Post by wooksClearly I am an exception to that category. Towards the end of my
degree course they will be recommending to students that they do
something that I have already done - get some industry experience. In
the final year of my degree program I will be asked to do something
that I have been doing for the past 20 years - a group project. I
have already had an international flavour to my career and have
probably written, designed, tested and implemented more
programs/systems than any undergraduate could dream of doing in the 4
years they spend at their university.
In industry there is a phrase or people who stick to the same formula
even in the face of a clear exception - jobsworth.
Is anyone arguing that you were turned down because they thought you
might have trouble with the things you mention? No.
You seem to be a very difficult person to get through to and pretty
soon I will stop trying.
My point is that the university of York didn't think at all.
The sum total of their assessment of my applicatio was to look for what
they would recognise as an A'level Maths equivalent qualification, not
find one and that was that.
Post by jrgIs experience of
systems design a particularly good indicator of ability at other
aspects of the course, e.g. abstract mathematics, hardware, functional
programming? Quite possibly not.
That subliminally patronising attitude surfaces again. Now my
application has now been condensed into experience of system design.
Lets deal with these issues.
FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMMING
Earlier you acknowledged that I had said I had programmed in scheme.
Right look at entry 5.19 here
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/faq.html
Are you beginning to see why I get annoyed with you.
The main language that I program in at present is XSLT something that
would probably have been mentioned if I had been offered the
opportunity to speak to somebody at York before their decision.
http://www.topxml.com/xsl/articles/fp/
HARDWARE
I would excel at Boolean algebra but struggle with everything else.
If you were raising this within the context of my lack of a discernible
background in Physics/Electronics then I would absolutely agree but
a) You are not so you don't have a point.
b) You probably slipped that in because I raised myself it in my last
post.
ABSTRACT MATHEMATICS
Abstraction is all about analysing a problem/concept and formulating a
representation that distills the essential features. That is what
problem solving with computers is all about. The output of an
abstractive process manifests at various stages in the development
cycle - schema diagrams, entity relationship models, database designs,
but ultimately the objective is a working system that solves the
problem it is modelled on or effectively communicates an idea/concept.
The correlation of computing with mathematics arises partly because
mathematics offers an alternative and in some cases more effective
means of communicating our ideas and solutions. If a person is adept at
distilling the essence of a problem idea and communicating it
mathematically (assuming that such problem lends itself to that mode of
communication) then that skill will translate to a computersied
solution. Now the corollary of that is that a person who has
demonstrable system design skills has demonstrated an aptitude that
translates into abstract mathematics. What seems to have gone over your
head is that abstract mathematics within the context of a CS degree is
not an end in itself - but offers techniques via which we can solve
problems with computers. So in essence you have got it arse about
face.
Whilst we are on the subject of abstraction, it is a concept whose
relevance to computing is not confined to mathematics. It applies to
art - when you choose to represent a concept visually does your
representation encapsulate the essence which in turn circularises back
to computing. What and how do u choose to present your diagrams and
user interfaces. It also applies to the written word. When a journalist
chooses to file an account of an event what how does he approach it.
What does he choose for a headline which events does he include and
which does he leave out. Again that circularises into computing - when
you are writing a paper, proposal or spec what goes in and what is left
out - how is it presented.
The last point is the reason why if I were your boss I'd fire your ass.
Not because you disagreed with me, not because you graduated from a
school that turned me down. No. The reason is because throughout this
discussion you have shown yourself to be spectacularly incapable of
distilling the essence of what I have said and what is at issue so as
to permit yourself to put in a reasoned and cogent response. Therefore
I wouldn't want you writing proposals talking to customers or dealing
with management and I wouldn't let you near any programming. If I
couldn't do those things what use would you be to the department.
Post by jrgPost by wooksPost by SamsonknightIf so, maybe they don't know
that and explaining that in detail would help. Maybe the fact that it
was a late application didn't help here, because maybe they already had
plenty of applicants and so didn't feel the need to spend their time
researching IMIS for themselves.
Again this is something addressed earlier in the thread. I actually
spoke to York about this and was told it wasn't a problem because there
was a lighter workload on the AT's desk (not so many other competing
applications).
OK, I admit I missed you saying that, it wasn't in the original post.
Post by wooksWhy would I want to do that when I already have a place at UCL.
Your original post was unclear as to your intentions. But "you" can
still refer to the general case of "someone who wishes to go to York
but is turned down on the basis of lack of evidence of mathematical
ability".
Let me repeat for the umpteenth time. My application did not lack
evidence of mathematical ability - I refer you to my various posts to
Matthew. York did what u did, they didn't know and couldn't be assed to
find out what the IMIS wa
s or to discern what the mathematical element of their program was. Now
you could say that may have been my fault but my IMIS qualifications
were not the bedrock of my application and given that at various times
the IMIS curriculum has been accredited by City and Greenwich
Universities I thought that other universities would be conversant with
them.
My original post and this thread was about the mature student
admissions process being a complete lottery. I narrated my experience
in applying to 9 different universities. 4 including York turned me
down. You've chosen to talk about only York. York happens to be the
least interesting case of the lot to me because I know why they did
what they did. You're the one who wants to about York and justify their
approach. I've indulged you. Having decided to do what you did you did
not and still haven't gone about it very well.
Post by jrgPost by wooksOnce again - you've not been reading the spec. I have already had a
written response from York which I summarised in my convo with Dr
Walker. The York refusal was the only one I followed up for specific
reasons that I stated in my conversation with Dr Walker.
I assure you I did read that. I was merely providing a disclaimer to
make sure noone mistook me for getting an overinflated opinion of
myself and believing I speak for the University of York, where in fact
I obviously only speak for myself. Given the propensity of people on
usenet to take things the wrong way, it seemed a sensible precaution.
James
So basically the motive of your intervention was to tell me that York
have very high standards which should not be lowered and which they and
you felt I did not meet.