is time an illusion? (or timeless dreams)

[cowboy carl]

cos i was dozing earlier.

and i was semi-dreaming something, and at one point in the dream, someone
hit a glass with a spoon and it make a spoon-hitting-glass noise.

at the exact same tme, a similar sounding noise (the noise of someone
opening the gate at the entrance to our car park) happened.

now clearly (or clearlyish) my brain couldn't have predicted this noise was
going to happen, and timed my dream so it happened at the same time as the
spoon hitting the glass.

so the only other alternative is that my dream didn't happen in the order i
remember dreaming it in. most likely, everything happened at once, the
noise woke me up, i associated it with the spoon hitting the glass and
everything else fell into place around that.


you may be thinking "ah, coinsidence" but it isn't, cos the same kind of
thing has happened many many many times with other noises, like when the
radiator pipes bang during the night and stuff like that.


so, has anyone else experienced that?

does anyone agree with my conclusion ... which also handily explains the
bizzare nature of dreams (everything happens at once, so we only remember
stuff when we wake up in the middle of a dream, and it's all weird-like)

or does anyone else have an alternative suggestion (e.g. time is a figment
of our imagination, and if we try really hard, we *can* predict future
noises/events, just as we do in dreams).

cc

[Robert de Vincy]

Post by cowboy carl
cos i was dozing earlier.
and i was semi-dreaming something, and at one point in the dream,
someone hit a glass with a spoon and it make a spoon-hitting-glass
noise.
at the exact same tme, a similar sounding noise (the noise of someone
opening the gate at the entrance to our car park) happened.
now clearly (or clearlyish) my brain couldn't have predicted this
noise was going to happen, and timed my dream so it happened at the
same time as the spoon hitting the glass.
so the only other alternative is that my dream didn't happen in the
order i remember dreaming it in. most likely, everything happened at
once, the noise woke me up, i associated it with the spoon hitting the
glass and everything else fell into place around that.
you may be thinking "ah, coinsidence" but it isn't, cos the same kind
of thing has happened many many many times with other noises, like
when the radiator pipes bang during the night and stuff like that.
so, has anyone else experienced that?

Ohyesindeedydoo!

It's a very weird thing when it happens.

Post by cowboy carl
does anyone agree with my conclusion ... which also handily explains
the bizzare nature of dreams (everything happens at once, so we only
remember stuff when we wake up in the middle of a dream, and it's all
weird-like)
or does anyone else have an alternative suggestion (e.g. time is a
figment of our imagination, and if we try really hard, we *can*
predict future noises/events, just as we do in dreams).

One thread of thought about consciousness suggests that we don't have a
sort of mini-us sitting in our heads (the "Cartesian theatre", as Dennett
calls it) -- which is not a new idea at all -- but instead what we think
of as 'consciousness' (or, indeed, "me") is actually a recreation in
retrospect of our sensations and mental processes (of which there are
many many many happening at the same time) that we sort of piece together
to make a story or a narrative that explains what we (if I can use that
word "we"!) have experienced. In other words, our 'consciousness' only
exists before this moment, even if THIS moment is only a fraction of a
second ahead of what our 'consciousness' moment is.

I'm not sure I believe it fully as it seems rather complicated and fancy,
and there are other theories that are simpler and more streamlined. But
it sorta fits in with your first conclusion above about the mind putting
the bits together afterwards to give a coherent narrative of events.

[cowboy carl]

Post by Robert de Vincy

Post by cowboy carl
cos i was dozing earlier.
and i was semi-dreaming something, and at one point in the dream,
someone hit a glass with a spoon and it make a spoon-hitting-glass
noise.
at the exact same tme, a similar sounding noise (the noise of someone
opening the gate at the entrance to our car park) happened.
now clearly (or clearlyish) my brain couldn't have predicted this
noise was going to happen, and timed my dream so it happened at the
same time as the spoon hitting the glass.
so the only other alternative is that my dream didn't happen in the
order i remember dreaming it in. most likely, everything happened at
once, the noise woke me up, i associated it with the spoon hitting the
glass and everything else fell into place around that.
you may be thinking "ah, coinsidence" but it isn't, cos the same kind
of thing has happened many many many times with other noises, like
when the radiator pipes bang during the night and stuff like that.
so, has anyone else experienced that?

Ohyesindeedydoo!
It's a very weird thing when it happens.

Post by cowboy carl
does anyone agree with my conclusion ... which also handily explains
the bizzare nature of dreams (everything happens at once, so we only
remember stuff when we wake up in the middle of a dream, and it's all
weird-like)
or does anyone else have an alternative suggestion (e.g. time is a
figment of our imagination, and if we try really hard, we *can*
predict future noises/events, just as we do in dreams).

One thread of thought about consciousness suggests that we don't have a
sort of mini-us sitting in our heads (the "Cartesian theatre", as Dennett
calls it) -- which is not a new idea at all -- but instead what we think
of as 'consciousness' (or, indeed, "me") is actually a recreation in
retrospect of our sensations and mental processes (of which there are
many many many happening at the same time) that we sort of piece together
to make a story or a narrative that explains what we (if I can use that
word "we"!) have experienced. In other words, our 'consciousness' only
exists before this moment, even if THIS moment is only a fraction of a
second ahead of what our 'consciousness' moment is.
I'm not sure I believe it fully as it seems rather complicated and fancy,
and there are other theories that are simpler and more streamlined. But
it sorta fits in with your first conclusion above about the mind putting
the bits together afterwards to give a coherent narrative of events.

[I'm doing a philosophy course this year so maybe together we can work to
make this newsgroup full of much more arty speak]

Personally, I'm going with the compatibalism version of free
will/consiousness, tho I haven't worked out what "I" am, I don't think I
have complete free will, I make decisions in a deterministic way, albeit
based on an incredibly complicated set of weightings of the possibilities
which is constantly changing.

Anyway, back to the dreams, I was only saying the 'mind' puts things
together to give a choerent thingy only *if* we wake up in the middle of a
dream, then we are forced to figure out what is in our heads.

Normal waking life happens 'normally'.

Anyway, umm, time to get drunk.

cc

[Robert de Vincy]

cowboy carl did write:

[snips]

Post by cowboy carl
[I'm doing a philosophy course this year so maybe together we can work
to make this newsgroup full of much more arty speak]

Yeah(!). Less of the "integrate this and derive that" and more... ummm...
arty speak!

Post by cowboy carl
Personally, I'm going with the compatibalism version of free
will/consiousness, tho I haven't worked out what "I" am, I don't think
I have complete free will, I make decisions in a deterministic way,
albeit based on an incredibly complicated set of weightings of the
possibilities which is constantly changing.

If you're interested (and who isn't?!?!) you might want to check out
the experiments of Benjamin Libet (his 1985 one is the best of the ones
I've looked at, I feel). Basically, what he did was to find out when
an action occurred, when the decision to perform that action arises, and
when the "readiness potential" (a state of the brain that occurs before
actions that 'prime' the nerves, muscles, etc, and get them ready to act).
(The measuring was done with electrodes and by monitoring electrical
activity in the brain and the nerves related to the action to be performed.)

What he found was that the sequence of events happened in the following
order:
1. Readiness potential.
2. Decision to act.
3. Action.

The conclusion from that experiment is that the brain actually primes the
pathways, etc, for an act to take place a fraction of a second BEFORE the
decision to act is formed.

Who is controlling whom?

But of course, if the "consciousness in retrospect" theory is right, then
it shouldn't be any surprise, as the "I decide to act" neural activity is
actually a recreation of prior events that makes a cogent story of what
happened.

Post by cowboy carl
Anyway, back to the dreams, I was only saying the 'mind' puts things
together to give a choerent thingy only *if* we wake up in the middle
of a dream, then we are forced to figure out what is in our heads.
Normal waking life happens 'normally'.
Anyway, umm, time to get drunk.

I did some of that last week. It wasn't as good as I remembered it.

[Mr Power]

Post by cowboy carl
so, has anyone else experienced that?

I had this cool dream a while ago where I was involved in some sort
of star trek plot involving the borg, and some how ended up crashing
the enterprise or whatever and being ejected through some sort of ejector
pod, at this point I woke up to the sound of fire alarms going off
(a fire drill), which coincided with the dream because there were loads
of ship alarms and stuff going off.

That was a strange experience, similar to what you suggest. To be honest
though I think your brain probably suddenly switches the subject of the
dream to fit whatever sound is waking you up. Personally I can never
remember much of what i've been dreaming.

Another cool type of dream is where you figure out that events that
are happening are not-realistic, so you must be dreaming,
at this point you either wake up, or if you are skilled you can
maintain the dream state and control the dream world.
The trouble is though once you figure out that you are dreaming
the world starts to lose credibility fast.

These don't happen very often to me, but when they do it's great.

Especially wet dreams, hehe.

[Toby]

Post by Mr Power

Post by cowboy carl
so, has anyone else experienced that?

I had this cool dream a while ago where I was involved in some sort
of star trek plot involving the borg, and some how ended up crashing
the enterprise or whatever and being ejected through some sort of ejector
pod, at this point I woke up to the sound of fire alarms going off
(a fire drill), which coincided with the dream because there were loads
of ship alarms and stuff going off.
That was a strange experience, similar to what you suggest. To be honest
though I think your brain probably suddenly switches the subject of the
dream to fit whatever sound is waking you up. Personally I can never
remember much of what i've been dreaming.
Another cool type of dream is where you figure out that events that
are happening are not-realistic, so you must be dreaming,
at this point you either wake up, or if you are skilled you can
maintain the dream state and control the dream world.
The trouble is though once you figure out that you are dreaming
the world starts to lose credibility fast.
These don't happen very often to me, but when they do it's great.
Especially wet dreams, hehe.

Yes, dude, sometimes that happens to me (umm, the controlling of
dreams thing, not the sticky one)...The last one was when I owned two
sweetshops under a railway bridge?!?!?!

[cowboy carl]

Post by Toby

Post by Mr Power

Post by cowboy carl
so, has anyone else experienced that?

I had this cool dream a while ago where I was involved in some sort
of star trek plot involving the borg, and some how ended up crashing
the enterprise or whatever and being ejected through some sort of ejector
pod, at this point I woke up to the sound of fire alarms going off
(a fire drill), which coincided with the dream because there were loads
of ship alarms and stuff going off.
That was a strange experience, similar to what you suggest. To be honest
though I think your brain probably suddenly switches the subject of the
dream to fit whatever sound is waking you up. Personally I can never
remember much of what i've been dreaming.
Another cool type of dream is where you figure out that events that
are happening are not-realistic, so you must be dreaming,
at this point you either wake up, or if you are skilled you can
maintain the dream state and control the dream world.
The trouble is though once you figure out that you are dreaming
the world starts to lose credibility fast.
These don't happen very often to me, but when they do it's great.
Especially wet dreams, hehe.

Yes, dude, sometimes that happens to me (umm, the controlling of
dreams thing, not the sticky one)...The last one was when I owned two
sweetshops under a railway bridge?!?!?!

I once dreamt that I was lucid dreaming.

I realised I was dreaming, so I made this guy fly up into the air, but he
soon vanished and I felt bad cos I didn't know how to get him down.

Then I woke up.

Then I woke up again for real.

cc

[Dazed]

In article <***@uni-berlin.de> cowboy carl <***@lka.ds.mkd>
says...

Post by cowboy carl
cos i was dozing earlier.
and i was semi-dreaming something, and at one point in the dream, someone
hit a glass with a spoon and it make a spoon-hitting-glass noise.
at the exact same tme, a similar sounding noise (the noise of someone
opening the gate at the entrance to our car park) happened.
now clearly (or clearlyish) my brain couldn't have predicted this noise was
going to happen, and timed my dream so it happened at the same time as the
spoon hitting the glass.
so the only other alternative is that my dream didn't happen in the order i
remember dreaming it in. most likely, everything happened at once, the
noise woke me up, i associated it with the spoon hitting the glass and
everything else fell into place around that.

<snip>

I don't dream anymore - or rather, I don't remember dreaming at all when
I wake up, or even feel like I have dreamt. Anyone else?

As in: go to sleep -> blank -> wake up.

I'm sure I heard once that it's related to whether you wake up yourself,
or if something/someone causes you to wake up.

I wonder if it's to do with how exhausted you are? As I have to be
really tired before I go to bed. Otherwise I stay awake thinking
constantly for 2 or 3 hours and get less sleep.