A-level A grade may be split in four

[OK]

A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004

A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

[John Porcella]

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four
http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

[Alun Harford]

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

IIRC Universities don't get the UMS scores.
And it wouldn't be right if they did - the results are not that accurate.

Alun Harford

[Ian B.]

Post by OK

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's

exams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and

when

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and

Highers

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

IIRC Universities don't get the UMS scores.
And it wouldn't be right if they did - the results are not that accurate.

It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542. Most universities don't get
them, however Cambridge and I think Oxford ask for UMS marks from AS results
when applying.

Would 4 bands be accurate however? I have no idea the statistics of this.

[David Haardt]

Post by Ian B.
It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542. Most universities don't get
them, however Cambridge and I think Oxford ask for UMS marks from AS results
when applying.
Would 4 bands be accurate however? I have no idea the statistics of this.

Interesting question. I doubt whether 540 and 542 are statistically
significantly different from each other at any reasonable level.

David

[John Porcella]

Post by David Haardt

Post by Ian B.
It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542. Most universities don't get
them, however Cambridge and I think Oxford ask for UMS marks from AS results
when applying.
Would 4 bands be accurate however? I have no idea the statistics of this.

Interesting question. I doubt whether 540 and 542 are statistically
significantly different from each other at any reasonable level.

You are possibly right, however if only one place were left on a course and
the university had only this as a criterion, then they should choose the
542. However, I doubt that all things would be equal in reality, though if
they were, then they would have little else to go on since university
interviews seem to have gone out of fashion.

[H Bergeron]

Post by Ian B.

Post by OK

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's

exams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and

when

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and

Highers

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks

are

Post by OK

Post by John Porcella
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

IIRC Universities don't get the UMS scores.
And it wouldn't be right if they did - the results are not that accurate.

It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542. Most universities don't get
them, however Cambridge and I think Oxford ask for UMS marks from AS results
when applying.
Would 4 bands be accurate however? I have no idea the statistics of this.

A few observations:

* The proposal appears to be to set the boundaries for the four
sub-divisions of the A grade using norm referencing (i.e. 25% of the A
grade students are in each subdivision). But the grade boundaries
between A, B, C etc. are not set by norm-referencing, but by senior
examiners attempting to apply a fixed standard required for each
grade. The new system would be a very ugly hybrid. A quick fix, at
best.

* Why four subdivisions? The average width of the bands would then be
only 30 UMS marks instead of 60 between the usual grades.

* The current assessments are not designed to discriminate between the
highest-achieving candidates. In my subject, mathematics, I have no
doubt that the candates who average 99% per module are better at some
things than those who average 85%, but I'm far from sure the
differences have very much to do with mathematical ability.

* How much use does the 90-100% UMS range get overall? In maths, marks
cover the whole range because some candidates will always get full
marks, but is the same true in, say, English and History? If not, the
width of the bands will be even smaller.

* What are Advanced Extension Awards supposed to be for? Much as I
hate the thought of throwing yet more money at the exam boards, it
seems very odd to introduce this qualification (it was supposed to be
one of the key features of Curriculum 2000) and then offer no
incentive for centres to use it.

[Ian/Cath Ford]

Post by H Bergeron
* Why four subdivisions? The average width of the bands would then be
only 30 UMS marks instead of 60 between the usual grades.

You'd probably expectthat for the 3 lower bands the average would be
much less than 30 I'd think - I very rarely see anything really high;
most As tend to get in by a bit rather than by absolutely loads
(although I accept that in Maths some might be more likely to than in
Geography).

I agree just about entirely with the rest of your points.

Ian
--
Ian, Cath, Eoin & Calum Ford
The view from Beccles

I loved the words you wrote to me/But that was bloody yesterday

No e-mail address. If you want to talk to me then talk here to start with and we can go back to your place later...

[Ray Pang]

Post by Ian B.

Post by OK

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's

exams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and

when

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and

Highers

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks

are

Post by OK

Post by John Porcella
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

IIRC Universities don't get the UMS scores.
And it wouldn't be right if they did - the results are not that accurate.

It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542.

But such a small difference can (with the current system (or at least the
system used when I was a wee 18 year old)) make the difference between an A
and a B, so what difference does it make? If anything, if they got the
scores, they'd realise that the 79.9% B grade candidate was pretty much as
good as the 80.0% A grade candidate.

[John Porcella]

Post by Ray Pang

Post by Ian B.
It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542.

But such a small difference can (with the current system (or at least the
system used when I was a wee 18 year old)) make the difference between an A
and a B, so what difference does it make? If anything, if they got the
scores, they'd realise that the 79.9% B grade candidate was pretty much as
good as the 80.0% A grade candidate.

Excellent point. It must surely be better to provide the detail of the
marks rather than a more vague letter grading which could mean anything from
80% to 100% for instance.

[John Porcella]

Post by Ian B.
It'd certainly be worrying that potentially they could discriminate between
someone who got 540 and someone who got 542.

What is wrong with that? If the university needs X number of students, then
they could start with the ones with the highest marks and work their way
down. This would probably work best if people applied once they had their
results.

Most universities don't get

Post by Ian B.
them, however Cambridge and I think Oxford ask for UMS marks from AS results
when applying.
Would 4 bands be accurate however? I have no idea the statistics of this.

Neither has anybody else, and I am not sure what statistics has to do with
it anyway.

[Dr A. N. Walker]

Post by John Porcella
What is wrong with that? If the university needs X number of students, then
they could start with the ones with the highest marks and work their way
down. This would probably work best if people applied once they had their
results.

Unfortunately, it also means that the best people have to
apply to the best universities first. We're not going to get any
applications from good students until Oxbridge have turned them
down, meaning in turn that we can't decide on our borderline cases
until Oxbridge have finished, so that we can't pass them on further
down the chain until even later, and so on. Of course, there could
be a system of "provisional" applications, etc., but in that case
you've just re-discovered pretty much the present system.

Note that the present system, for all its faults, has
*evolved*, and its actually pretty efficient. It *is* going to
take several months to get through all the paperwork -- getting
forms into the computer and processed out to univs, inviting
applicants to open days or similar, making decisions, sorting
out the 5% or so of difficult cases [fee status, disability status,
weird qualifications], .... Clearing can only work in such a
short time because most of the hard work has been done well in
advance and because univs that make serious use of it have huge
manpower devoted to it for several weeks -- wouldn't scale to
the entire system. [OTOH, increasing mechanisation could change
some of that in the next few years.]

[John Porcella]

Post by Alun Harford

Post by John Porcella
I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

IIRC Universities don't get the UMS scores.

When I wrote that the UMS marks were given, I meant that they were known. I
appreciate that currently only the boards, schools and students know them,
in fact everybody that matters except for the universities!

Post by Alun Harford
And it wouldn't be right if they did - the results are not that accurate.

It would be better than giving an even vaguer grade classification.

In what way do you think that the UMS marks are "not that accurate"?

[Toby]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:32:02 +0000 (UTC), "John Porcella"

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four
http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

Figure this: they are not given.

You don't include your UMS marks on the UCAS form, and I heard that
Cambridge have been told by UCAS not to ask for them...However, there
is nothing to stop your teacher from including them in your reference.

[John Porcella]

Post by Toby
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:32:02 +0000 (UTC), "John Porcella"

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by Toby

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at splitting the 'A' grade.

Figure this: they are not given.

Really?

When I received my results the UMS marks were clearly stated, and not just
the grades. I think that you have assumed that I meant that the
universities got the marks! They currently do not, to the best of my
knowledge, but the marks exist so it would surely be easier to give them
those than splitting the grading into further finer pieces.

Post by Toby
You don't include your UMS marks on the UCAS form, and I heard that
Cambridge have been told by UCAS not to ask for them...However, there
is nothing to stop your teacher from including them in your reference.

Which would be an argument, perhaps, for having uni applications made AFTER
A levels are completed?

[Stuart Williams]

In article <cfl0o2$irq$***@sparta.btinternet.com>, ***@btinternet.com
says...

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four
http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out

Dangerously "figurative" there, John

Post by John Porcella
what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at

Oh dear, more figurative language - "look at" means "train one's gaze
on", not, surely, "consider", which is the sense in which you are using
it.

Post by John Porcella
splitting the 'A' grade.

You still haven't answered the argument I presented some time ago. It
runs like this:

If you exclude secondary definitions of common words, you will find
yourself unable to use scores of standard English locutions. Since even
you cannot exclude the secondary meanings of words like "niche", "face"
or "feel", you are guilty of a glaring inconsistency in banning "say"
when used to mean "express in written form".

That's all there is to it - are you going to rebut it or not?

[All you have to do is say "No", and I'll stop.]

{Note to baffled readers: you may think I've gone completely bananas in
my persecution of JP but it all stems from his early contributions to
this group, when he took me to task for using the word "kids" in
reference to "secondary school students". He kept questioning the
presence of young goats in schools. Later on, he argued that my use of
"kids" was equivalent to the Nazis' use of various [unspecified] slang
terms for Jews. I gave him numerous opportunities to retract this crazy
argument, but he never did. Like all people who are unjustly accused of
being just like the Nazis, I have never forgotten or forgiven this
extraordinary slur.}

SW

[Ray Pang]

Post by Stuart Williams
says...
{Note to baffled readers: you may think I've gone completely bananas in
my persecution of JP but it all stems from his early contributions to
this group, when he took me to task for using the word "kids" in
reference to "secondary school students". He kept questioning the
presence of young goats in schools. Later on, he argued that my use of
"kids" was equivalent to the Nazis' use of various [unspecified] slang
terms for Jews. I gave him numerous opportunities to retract this crazy
argument, but he never did. Like all people who are unjustly accused of
being just like the Nazis, I have never forgotten or forgiven this
extraordinary slur.}
SW

Many, if not all, of us have already been there. Make me wonder why they
bothered to rename 'deja' to 'Google Groups'? 'Deja' just seems to fit the
bill so perfectly.

[Toby]

Post by Ray Pang

Post by Stuart Williams
says...
{Note to baffled readers: you may think I've gone completely bananas in
my persecution of JP but it all stems from his early contributions to
this group, when he took me to task for using the word "kids" in
reference to "secondary school students". He kept questioning the
presence of young goats in schools. Later on, he argued that my use of
"kids" was equivalent to the Nazis' use of various [unspecified] slang
terms for Jews. I gave him numerous opportunities to retract this crazy
argument, but he never did. Like all people who are unjustly accused of
being just like the Nazis, I have never forgotten or forgiven this
extraordinary slur.}
SW

Many, if not all, of us have already been there. Make me wonder why they
bothered to rename 'deja' to 'Google Groups'? 'Deja' just seems to fit the
bill so perfectly.

hehe But he's just TOO ANNOYING to let it go!

[Ian B.]

Post by Ray Pang

Post by Stuart Williams
says...
{Note to baffled readers: you may think I've gone completely bananas in
my persecution of JP but it all stems from his early contributions to
this group, when he took me to task for using the word "kids" in
reference to "secondary school students". He kept questioning the
presence of young goats in schools. Later on, he argued that my use of
"kids" was equivalent to the Nazis' use of various [unspecified] slang
terms for Jews. I gave him numerous opportunities to retract this crazy
argument, but he never did. Like all people who are unjustly accused of
being just like the Nazis, I have never forgotten or forgiven this
extraordinary slur.}
SW

Many, if not all, of us have already been there. Make me wonder why they
bothered to rename 'deja' to 'Google Groups'? 'Deja' just seems to fit the
bill so perfectly.

Reading this made me hit myself on the head, repeatedly and hard.

http://tinyurl.com/5xktz

(FYI I used to go by 'Jojoba86')

[John Porcella]

Post by Ian B.
Reading this made me hit myself on the head, repeatedly and hard.

I had not read that in a long while!

Ouch! Do not punish yourself so!

[John Porcella]

Post by Stuart Williams
says...

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's exams
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and when
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and Highers
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out

Dangerously "figurative" there, John

Post by John Porcella
what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at

Oh dear, more figurative language - "look at" means "train one's gaze
on", not, surely, "consider", which is the sense in which you are using
it.

Indeed.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella
splitting the 'A' grade.

You still haven't answered the argument I presented some time ago. It

Sorry, I have fallen behind on reading posts here latterly.

Post by Stuart Williams
If you exclude secondary definitions of common words,

Hmm. If I recall the definition of "say" provided was not a secondary one
but the fourth one!

you will find

Post by Stuart Williams
yourself unable to use scores of standard English locutions. Since even
you cannot exclude the secondary meanings of words like "niche", "face"
or "feel", you are guilty of a glaring inconsistency in banning "say"
when used to mean "express in written form".

You put up a strong argument, Stuart. However, and I may be wrong, I doubt
that the person who keeps insisting on "saying" things in this written
environment was aware of the subtleties you present.

You are raising, of course, the old chestnut about whether dictionaries (and
grammarians) should be prescriptive of descriptive. If people do insist on
"saying" when they mean something else, it is easily argued that a wrong
becomes a right!

[Toby]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:11:10 +0000 (UTC), "John Porcella"

Post by OK

Post by Stuart Williams
says...

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
A-level A grade may be split in four

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2004/story/0,14505,1279450,00.html

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
Donald MacLeod
Monday August 9, 2004
A-level A grades could be split into four to help the most prestigious
universities select candidates under proposals from the government's

exams

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
troubleshooter.
But universities said today the change would only really help if and

when

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
they move to a system where students apply after their A-level and

Highers

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella

Post by OK
results, instead of on the present basis of predicted grades.

I cannot figure out

Dangerously "figurative" there, John

Post by John Porcella
what the current problem is! Since the UMS marks are
given, there is no need to look at

Oh dear, more figurative language - "look at" means "train one's gaze
on", not, surely, "consider", which is the sense in which you are using
it.

Indeed.

Post by Stuart Williams

Post by John Porcella
splitting the 'A' grade.

You still haven't answered the argument I presented some time ago. It

Sorry, I have fallen behind on reading posts here latterly.

Post by Stuart Williams
If you exclude secondary definitions of common words,

Hmm. If I recall the definition of "say" provided was not a secondary one
but the fourth one!
you will find

Post by Stuart Williams
yourself unable to use scores of standard English locutions. Since even
you cannot exclude the secondary meanings of words like "niche", "face"
or "feel", you are guilty of a glaring inconsistency in banning "say"
when used to mean "express in written form".

You put up a strong argument, Stuart. However, and I may be wrong, I doubt
that the person who keeps insisting on "saying" things in this written
environment was aware of the subtleties you present.

So that person is wrong in their acceptable usage if they're not fully
aware of the subtlety?

[John Porcella]

Post by Toby

Post by John Porcella
You put up a strong argument, Stuart. However, and I may be wrong, I doubt
that the person who keeps insisting on "saying" things in this written
environment was aware of the subtleties you present.

So that person is wrong in their acceptable usage if they're not fully
aware of the subtlety?

Yes, because they were not aware of the difference.

However, I maintain that 'say' is for the spoken word.